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Post by vixx on Jun 12, 2015 6:41:14 GMT
What are GC0, GC1, GC2? The year of the death? That should be 2007, according to Marvel's sliding scale, but that's a really shitty concept. The most obvious drawback, is that Marvel can never use a fixed date, for any event that took place in the past. You can cite months, days of the month, but never years. Amnesia between GG episodes was clearly a limiting factor, when deciding how and when, could Norman have put his plan in motion. Only during his relapses, around ASM #66 and #97, was he in any condition to give instructions to his assistant, that's why he needs, at least, one. Interations of clones - I'm in software G0 - alpha G1 - beta G2 - production If this update works - all the heavy lifting necessary to complete a rudimentary clone would happen at is oscorp then move to a location that becomes a goblin lair Everything learned passes to Jackal, possibly anonymously, who builds on that base to get to the Gwen clone by issue 144. Highly more likely than Warren perfecting human cloning working alone - and the explanation given for recalling their memory (hypnosis) fits with them being "born" blank Hmm.. Ok. But that makes it highly unlikely the assistant lived, pointing back to the bum he murders... Don't think he'd let that connection to him go. simple explanation may work best - goblin knows who Spiderman is, who is friends are, and that they have been in his house.. Could find a hair there or setup a device he could check at his next cycle - putting a pin here, needs work
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 12, 2015 7:06:21 GMT
I'll start by those aspect of the script I find trouble with.
I think you're trying to explain something that doesn't need explaining, in the established MU. Warren was the High Evolutionary's assistant, back in the 30's. He's the one who jump-started cloning. Osborn could provide financial backing for his research, with the hidden motive of using it for his own purposes, but Miles should be the core of the project.
Having Gwen, learn Peter's secret, from Osborn, is a question of taste. I'd prefer to leave that task to Peter himself. Once Gwen resurfaces, she would have lots of questions, the most pressing one being why would the GG go after her. I think guilt, should prompt Peter to finally come clean.
Norman needs a curator. He's going overseas, who's going to take care of the project? How's going to keep an eye on Miles? Warren's the real loose end, but he might prove useful, so killing him isn't practical.
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Post by vixx on Jun 12, 2015 17:23:33 GMT
very good points -
For Gwen - part of it is the old style writing in the original series - where every other month something crazy is happening that could expose him and everyone (except MJ) is too dumb to connect it, or forgets and move along as soon as that arc is done. Sins really kind of muddies the waters by mixing the old and new styles of writing. Can skip all that, but she should be able to connect the dots after the attack. Maybe she figuring out Peter was in London (she was alone in their apartment)
Didn't realize they gave Warren that back story - for continuity, this is what needs to happen:
1) Warren has to really think she died - he can't suspect it's a clone 2) A girl has to die (to match the text in 122) and to escalate Norman
I agree, Warren can be funded by Norman, they may even meet. Think this (and that this brilliant scientist was basically a background guy teaching high school for 100 issues) was mentioned in your other thread. He could easily have access to their DNA.
Like you mentioned - if he doesn't remember, and Norman is already thinking Clone Saga.. they may keep him alive.
He could be connected to Oscorp (advisor?) with the job at the high school as a plant - just because we don't meat Norman until 37 doesn't mean he not pulling the strings. Ned was supposed to be the GG, and was introduced at 18, and we know about Oscorp and the GG sense 14.
Warren could be there to watch Harry, or Gwen's mom or dad is of such importance to he Norman has Gwen watched. He did help the good Captain when Kingpin brainwashed him if memory serves.
He'd have to figure out cloning, make the Gwen clone G0, have an event to forget most of this - then remember just enough immediately after her death to start back with the program.
Seems more like programming than amnesia. Nullifier? Hypnosis? Psychosis? LSD?
maybe Norman gave Harry's dealer "special" pills to give to Harry (kidding!)
Seems like Norman would have to do something to him after he knew Gwen and Peter were together, and after he got - maybe run him through his own machine lol leaving him to think he's just a teacher? You figure if he connected to OsCorp - any plot device you need could be plucked from a project there.
Maybe Joyce Delaney is the girl that GG kills after hooking up Gwen in the tank?
Saw the small thread on Gwen's mom - I don't remember reading that Gwen's mom is dead or not... but Captain Stacy is quite strong in the book.
The curator could be doing the job out of fear of Norman. He dies, has no kids, wife, etc to fear retribution... which triggers an admission letter to be sent to the bugle.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 12, 2015 19:43:31 GMT
she should be able to connect the dots after the attack. Maybe she figuring out Peter was in London (she was alone in their apartment) 1) Warren has to really think she died - he can't suspect it's a clone 2) A girl has to die (to match the text in 122) and to escalate Norman Warren can be funded by Norman, they may even meet. […] He could easily have access to their DNA. Like you mentioned - if he doesn't remember, and Norman is already thinking Clone Saga.. they may keep him alive. He could be connected to Oscorp (advisor?) with the job at the high school as a plant - just because we don't meat Norman until 37 doesn't mean he not pulling the strings. Ned was supposed to be the GG, and was introduced at 18, and we know about Oscorp and the GG sense 14. He could be there to watch Harry, or Gwen's mom or dad is of such importance to he Norman has Gwen watched. He did help the good Captain when Kingpin brainwashed him if memory serves. He'd have to figure out cloning, make the Gwen clone G0, have an event to forget most of this - then remember just enough immediately after her death to start back with the program. Seems more like programming than amnesia. Nullifier? Hypnosis? Psychosis? LSD? Seems like Norman would have to do something to him after he knew Gwen and Peter were together, and after he got - maybe run him through his own machine lol leaving him to think he's just a teacher? You figure if he connected to OsCorp - any plot device you need could be plucked from a project there. The curator could be doing the job out of fear of Norman. He dies, has no kids, wife, etc to fear retribution... which triggers an admission letter to be sent to the bugle. Eight points, this time: - It was suggested several times, that she knew something was amiss. Usually, Peter would get out of trouble with some excuse that was never totally satisfactory. It was like an unfaithful husband, who's always cheating and getting away with it, simply because the wife doesn't want to face the truth. This time, excuses would not be enough, she would press the matter and he'd confess out of guilt.
- Otherwise, the story wouldn't work for me.
- Hum, this brings us back to the virus. i don't know how it worked, in the 90's, but maybe an earlier version rendered the test subject comatose. She could be the girl he admitted killing, in ASM #122. The problem with this, is that after he got what he wanted, a clone he could use to impersonate a dead Gwen, what motive would he have, to continue investigating "instantaneous cloning"?
- He did have access to their DNA, that's part of the Clone Saga. It wasn't specified "when" he took the samples, so it could be as earlier as necessary.
- I wouldn't change the fact, that it was Warren, the one behind the Clone Saga, I would just make it so Norman's being informed by his spy, and actually helps him with the fingerprints, without anyone knowing, just to mess with Peter.
- Taking their "partnership" back, to a time before ASM #39, would either make it a big coincidence, or suggest that Norman, too, was interested in Gwen. I don't like coincidences, and I like Sins Past even less, so I would stick with the ASM #66 timing.
- The damage done to Warren's brain, by the brainwashing machine, would go past simple amnesia. It would be like programming him to think he's a teacher, only to turn him into someone else on the weekends. That would mess him up but good.
- No letters. The more mundane the better, just a car accident and the gears of everyday life.
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Post by vixx on Jun 12, 2015 20:19:43 GMT
The clone in a can could be interesting - but developing a virus is so different that what is done later with machines ... ideally it would just be a monster version of that. The slides he has were able to recover Gwen's memories really close to when she died - so they must be newer.
Being a techer - it could be a wad of gum he asks her to spit out in class.
Would look like:
Warren is a teacher with an idea for cloning, pitches Norman Norman has a military vision for cloning, Warren is easy to control Warren gets a job at the school as her teacher Warren falls for Gwen First clone attempts, chooses Gwen as the subject, DNA from school, success. shares findings with Norman They get into it because the clone is great, but is blank. Warren says give him time. Norman calls him out for wasting time at that school chasing that girl. It's gets heated. Accident Happens. Warren is out cold. He gets zapped. Forgets everything Norman wants him to. This exchange puts Gwen on his radar (not just the Goblins)
Did they ever say where kingpin got the machine?
Other Options:
Miles kidnaps Gwen after seeing her with Peter, and swaps her with a perfect clone developed w/ Norman before Sins (he has 15 issues to do this 31 through 45), putting her immediately in stasis until he figures out how to "program" people, not just recover their memories (he thinks he can make her love him). Norman finds out later (but doesn't know where she is) and is pissed for 2 reasons - clone babies and it jeopardize his reputation/company over a stupid girl. Miles attacks at the insult (and realizing Norman is sleeping with her) and something happens, causing him to lose his memory and assume the life of a teacher. (he hasn't escalated to murder yet, and is valuable). Warren believes the clone is the real Gwen, no problem there. Norman never learns her actual location (which also explains why it's not in his journal) and she's not actually "missing" so no one suspects him of anything. After 122, He let's Spiderman carry on thinking she's dead, wondering how he'd react if she ever did show up). There is a rudimentary clone there looking after the place (Warren's first stab at giving a perfect clone memory) so she is taken care of.
Bonus: This Gwen is alive, but never seriously dated Peter (no marriage)... the clone did, in effect preserving 121.
Alternate (not my favs):
Norman grabs real Gwen when she shows up at the door, swaps with the clone. Clone has false story to tell MJ about kids - this puts some space between her and her tight group of friends. Norman's goal is to use her to advance cloning research. Warren finds out, flips out, Norman does something to him.
Twist: The Gwen/Osborn twins are actually the little blonde kids pictured on the wall of clone Miles home - kidnapped by Osborn or given to him by his clone wife. (Once Harry died, you know he was feeling the kid pressure)
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 12, 2015 20:26:58 GMT
Did they ever say where kingpin got the machine? That's the cool thing about it, it was Oscorp's property! Developed by Wrinkler, while working for Norman. As for needing further research after the "failed" virus attempt, I forgot about the twins! Of course he needed Warren, to continue working on "real" cloning, Osborn still wanted to impose Sins Past on Peter.
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Post by vixx on Jun 12, 2015 21:54:01 GMT
Ok - this makes it interesting.
Some of this is Norman / Some is Goblin
Nurilizer is good to reprogram Warren...but it doesn't work on clones...maybe it does nothing, maybe it blows out their mind. If Norman has a cloning tank and a way to program them ... he doesn't need Warren, and could pretty much replace people at will. So he never gets both. He may be developing them as separate projects so neither team has all the pieces.
Think Norman overestimates himself, wipes the prof, but can't make anything new stick using Warren's research - it's way, way to advanced - unless it has real Gwen's DNA (clone DNA won't work) ... so he is forced down a Gwen/Norman hybrid path. He would totally prefer to just clone himself. That's the dream lol
So he's got a blank Gwen clone , can't move the research forward, except with DNA from some girl Warren was yammering about... and is frustrated. Sticks her back in the tube for now.
If instead, she comes out of the tube perfect - but is limited to only being Gwen...that could work too.
Some pre-work with test tubes show he can't clone anyone else.
He keeps the lab assistant trapped and experiments on her with the neuralizer (keeping her memory but erasing /altering specific fragments) . She dies from the experiments or he just kills her outright. Which is an escalation for him. (These skills could also help explain how he could plant a genetic bomb in May's head so easily.)
He blows out the clones memory or it just doesn't take when working on the clone...but Warren's notes have some thoughts on how to do this effectivley.
In the end, Warren's choice of DNA for the project forces Norman to target Gwen - independent of spiderman ... the fact that the two are linked...huge bonus.
He knows short of a massive breakthrough, he needs more DNA than all the chewing gum at high school to get to perfect Osborn clones.
he's going to have to grab her and keep her... just a question of when.
He could do a Gwen swap very early with Warren's Gwen clone...he might even be able to get memory manipulation far enough along that he can add a false memory or two before doing this. This clone is what would live and die through 121.
He could push this off, and come back to it closer to 121...and swap the burn out for the real one at that time.
the funny thing is is he swapped her early enough - Jackal would literally have fallen in love with his own work.... his earlier work, and all the hours in the lab with her, may be why he's so fixed on her later. She may have just been some obnoxious teen who spit gum out at the wrong time before that. I kind of like how he's never really able to get back to the level of cloning perfection he attained the first time around. If there is a broken one, it is kind of a petri dish to run breeding experiments on or is just disposed of. If she turns into an experiment - it's a really creepy story, especially if she actually gets pregnant through sex or invitro. Think he's prefer to grow, alter and monitor them in a lab. Peter could find all this stuff at the same time, in the same lab he finds her.
When she comes out of stasis - she should have aged normally. Being able to stop that is too much technology to possess...plus, if she's still high/school college Gwen while everyone else has grown up... that may be too much of a gulf to overcome if she's going to fold back into the group.
If Peter has memories of almost marrying this girl, but Gwen remembers him as guy she was crushing hard on - then rejoins the situation where he's got someone else or is with MJ - that's all kind of drama to figure out.
I like the idea that she doesn't reappear in OMD, because she's not dead. Not sure if those events really (or Cival War mid wipe) do anything to her.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 13, 2015 7:31:22 GMT
Some of this is Norman / Some is Goblin Nurilizer is good to reprogram Warren...but it doesn't work on clones...maybe it does nothing, maybe it blows out their mind. If Norman has a cloning tank and a way to program them ... he doesn't need Warren, and could pretty much replace people at will. So he never gets both. He may be developing them as separate projects so neither team has all the pieces. Think Norman overestimates himself, wipes the prof, but can't make anything new stick using Warren's research - it's way, way to advanced - unless it has real Gwen's DNA (clone DNA won't work) ... so he is forced down a Gwen/Norman hybrid path. He would totally prefer to just clone himself. That's the dream lol So he's got a blank Gwen clone , can't move the research forward, except with DNA from some girl Warren was yammering about… and is frustrated. Sticks her back in the tube for now. If instead, she comes out of the tube perfect - but is limited to only being Gwen…that could work too. Some pre-work with test tubes show he can't clone anyone else. He keeps the lab assistant trapped and experiments on her with the neuralizer (keeping her memory but erasing /altering specific fragments) . She dies from the experiments or he just kills her outright. Which is an escalation for him. (These skills could also help explain how he could plant a genetic bomb in May's head so easily.) He blows out the clones memory or it just doesn't take when working on the clone…but Warren's notes have some thoughts on how to do this effectively. In the end, Warren's choice of DNA for the project forces Norman to target Gwen - independent of spiderman … the fact that the two are linked...huge bonus. He knows short of a massive breakthrough, he needs more DNA than all the chewing gum at high school to get to perfect Osborn clones. he's going to have to grab her and keep her… just a question of when. He could do a Gwen swap very early with Warren's Gwen clone...he might even be able to get memory manipulation far enough along that he can add a false memory or two before doing this. This clone is what would live and die through 121. He could push this off, and come back to it closer to 121...and swap the burn out for the real one at that time. When she comes out of stasis - she should have aged normally. Being able to stop that is too much technology to possess...plus, if she's still high/school college Gwen while everyone else has grown up... that may be too much of a gulf to overcome if she's going to fold back into the group. If Peter has memories of almost marrying this girl, but Gwen remembers him as guy she was crushing hard on - then rejoins the situation where he's got someone else or is with MJ - that's all kind of drama to figure out. I like the idea that she doesn't reappear in OMD, because she's not dead. Not sure if those events really (or Cival War mid wipe) do anything to her. - It can't be Norman at all, if he knew about the project, he'd trigger a new Goblin episode.
- I guess you want to use Wrinkle's brainwashing machine, to substitute Gwen before ASM #121, and impersonate her. Why would we need this? The only Gwen replica Norman would seek, is one to impersonate her… in death.
- It's not a question of Norman thinking he can make do, without Warren. It's about having completed his plans, but keeping him in tow, for the future.
- I don't see the targeting of Gwen as a technical issue, but as outright revenge. He wanted to get at Peter, and she was the obvious target, but he knew her father and she was Harry's friend. He didn't want to kill her, at the time.
- There's no Goblin episode, close to ASM #121.
- Drew also brought the age difference up, but even if her body were to age in the tank, her mind wouldn't. Besides, stasis is stasis, what you suggest is more like keeping her in an induced comma. That's more realistic, but would require more than just one person to take care of her, more like a medical team, and that's too many loose ends.
- You would need to have made the swap, at the time of the second relapse, into the Goblin persona, that's retconning two years worth, of the original material. Besides, that would mean his team was successful, in creating a fully functional clone, between ASM #66 and ASM #97. The team responsible for the brainwashing machine's repair-modification, would also need to have it 100% operational. That feels rushed.
- The Civil War mind wipe, was aimed at making people forget Peter's secret, if she didn't know, she wasn't affected.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 13, 2015 7:48:04 GMT
Norman has a military vision for cloning (plus is thinking about the possibilities to clone himself) Present day - Norman has forgotten about his old lair. Reports of a new Goblin Lair being discovered flood the Bugle. Peter is dispatched to take pictures. Replaying the last time he was in this area in his head, he is sad - but has found peace and away to live with himself. Arriving at the scene, he quickly realizes this isn't an ordinary lair. Police have it roped off, he investigates as Spiderman, making his way down into the scene. He enters the laboratory, looking down into a huge room full of odd yet familiar equipment. He sees where the twins were grown, bunch of gliders, bombs, and costumes and it looks very abandoned - except a huge glass tube, covered in dust, that everyone is gathered around. He makes out through a clean part someone wiped away a young girl, with blonde hair, suspended in the tank, covered in wires and tubes. When he makes the connection ...his world splits open and his head explodes. I prefer the immortally angle, Norman's never been a contractor for the military. Still, the problem exists that, once the project shifts its focus against Spider-Man, he would remember he's the GG, all the time. This directly contradicts the original comics. You know that the DB went down, in ASM #614, right? And Peter hasn't been a reporter for quite some time, now. Other than that, it would be an ok approach, I still prefer him just reading it in the papers.
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Post by vixx on Jun 13, 2015 15:32:17 GMT
Thought the immortality angle was good - Wasn't the goblin strum originally a military application? I'm not really a fan of grabbing her early - but it was on the table to be explored. I do think Norman would overestimate his abilities and be unable to move forward with Warrens work when he got into the details - needing Gwen DNA helps explain the twins Think grabbing her later and planting a memory on MJ makes the most likely - realistically, he could do that anytime before the twins show up Not sold on needing a whole team - there is some hardcore tech floating around - not out of the realm to think it could monitor itself and keep things running with no one around.... Could rip off or purchase stuff from starck through oscorp if got backed into a corner Long outline wasn't great but consolidated the thread - lots of holes... The nuralizer fixes warren, but is tediculously powerful ... Catch22 Will take another crack at it - was easier before Sins Long shot, but it's possible he had an episode but stayed in the lab to work on his plan vs flying around the neighborhood
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Post by vixx on Jun 13, 2015 15:36:42 GMT
Actually - couldnt he just implant the memory in Peter that Mary Jane told him?
If he ever brought it up again, she'd look at him like he's nuts - and he could rewrite the nature of their relationship ( never slept together)
File it under messing with with his current relationship too
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 13, 2015 16:10:39 GMT
Wasn't the goblin strum originally a military application? I do think Norman would overestimate his abilities and be unable to move forward with Warrens work when he got into the details - needing Gwen DNA helps explain the twins Think grabbing her later and planting a memory on MJ makes the most likely - realistically, he could do that anytime before the twins show up Not sold on needing a whole team - there is some hardcore tech floating around - not out of the realm to think it could monitor itself and keep things running with no one around.... Could rip off or purchase stuff from starck through oscorp if got backed into a corner Long shot, but it's possible he had an episode but stayed in the lab to work on his plan vs flying around the neighborhood Norman intended on selling it, no potential buyer was specified. The twins are self-explanatory, he wanted to to hurt Peter in yet another way. It could be revealed that they too, were brainwashed, and that Osborn never even bothered to meet them, much less "raise" them. Exactly, since she didn't tell anyone, until the very moment Peter received the letter, the "memories" could very well have been the result of a very recent brainwash. In fact, I always found suspicious that the letter was delayed for so long, and that it arrived exactly when Norman was in prison, for the first time ever, due to Spidey outing him. I also prefer the "hardcore tech", mostly because it gives the option of keeping her in stasis, preserved in body and soul. It would be like she just skipped 600+ issues of ASM, and we get to witness her in the next panel, after #122. It could work, but you also need to have an explanation, as to why he would forget again, that he was the GG.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 13, 2015 16:33:09 GMT
Actually - couldnt he just implant the memory in Peter that Mary Jane told him? If he ever brought it up again, she'd look at him like he's nuts - and he could rewrite the nature of their relationship ( never slept together) That sounds way too convoluted, besides, where would Peter's false memories end and reality begin? It was all kind of interlaced, You know what? I don't recall anyone actually saying, that they never slept together, it was insinuated, but never overtly admitted.
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Post by vixx on Jun 13, 2015 16:37:31 GMT
Is there a spot where he had her?
Perhaps at the hospital for the baby stuff? He could have a plant do it
Did the nuralizer survive? He could always have another made, but would open questions on not using it in 600 issues
He has had access to Peter forever -
Think it's cleanest if it's broken up into small chunks - funding warren through wiping him is one
Doing research at hitting a wall with it is two
Agree on her waking up after prolonged stasis - she could have a predisposition genetically speaking that makes her ideal for the tech treatments - including Norman's odd blood
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Post by vixx on Jun 13, 2015 17:27:04 GMT
Actually - couldnt he just implant the memory in Peter that Mary Jane told him? If he ever brought it up again, she'd look at him like he's nuts - and he could rewrite the nature of their relationship ( never slept together) That sounds way too convoluted, besides, where would Peter's false memories end and reality begin? It was all kind of interlaced, You know what? I don't recall anyone actually saying, that they never slept together, it was insinuated, but never overtly admitted. Pete said it after MJ told him, she was asking if the kids could be his... just remember him at the window Know they did it to firmly shut that door - but it really throws a wrench in the earlier stories and why he's so attached.... it becomes more about spiderman couldn't save her, and less about Peter losing what means the most to him because he's Spiderman... Plus - it would make her pregnant the whole time they were together, so not sleeping together takes away that factor too - fans would have torn it apart even more...
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