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Post by vixx on Jun 9, 2015 18:40:58 GMT
Essential: A reasonable gap between The Goblin grabbing Gwen and Peter finding them on the bridge exists. Gwen didn't move during the entire fight, and Spider-Man didn't get close enough to check her vitals - beyond normal visible signs. There are undiscovered Lairs and stash houses within a reasonable distance of the Bridge or the Apartment. Norman and Warren knew each other prior to the Clone Saga. Only Warren could pull off cloning at this level. Gwen died at night, Goblin died the following morning, the body was removed early in the day, the story was printed in the late edition
Strong: Gwen suspected Peter was Spiderman, but never confronted him Goblin had other motivations to grabbing Gwen while looking for Peter - it wasnt just random opportunity Gwen/Norman relationship from Sins could be a false memory given to MJ. Cloning process consist of two separate parts: Creating the vessel (Body) and Developing the mind (experiences, personality)
Goblin takes Gwen someplace before taking her to the tower. There are small details that could support the gap taking up to a couple of hours.
Jackal (or ??) was instructed, at some point, to provide a "dead" clone body that matched Gwen. Because it's essentially an organic prop - you many not have the disintegration, and can modify the fingerprints to match. There is no pesky "spark of life" requirement that makes you follow the rules. It could have biological reactions - but no capacity to be a "real" person. There is a bit of medical literature that points this way around brain death and growing individual organs - the leap of faith would be assuming that someone who could clone a nearly perfect sentient being, could create a "dead" one with primitive brain stem functionality (i.e. heart beating, breathing) and matching fingerprints.
It could have been created months or years prior, and help explain why Warren became so fixed on Gwen.
Norman would have loved watching Peter suffer, all while knowing the real Gwen was in one of his lairs. If Norman dropped Gwen off before leaving to engage Spider-man with the "dead" Gwen, it supports his "Romantic Idiot! She was dead before your webbing reached her.." He obviously would have had some plans for her once he returned (ew.) , or at the very least she was worth something to him alive. He could have traded her to the Jackal for an army of heirs or use her a future bargaining chip with Peter.
Problems:
What if Norman didn't plan this, instead just flipping out and grabbing the first target he finds: That's possible - but anything Norman does these days seems to be based on a detailed plan, carefully crafted from pieces that don't instantly fit together. He seemed to have it together on the tower, anticipating (or leading) Spiderman to a particular script through his actions. If he knew who Peter was, it wouldn't be hard to find out about Gwen and learn what she meant to him - and have a detailed plan ready to go at a moments notice, should the need arise..and this would mindfuck Pete beyond anything he's done so far. or It really could be as simple as grab Gwen in place of Peter, make a beeline to the bridge, fight and toss her to her death.
I'm more of a "Shit! He's not here. Better put plan Q16935 into motion" fan.
Jackal being distraught about Gwen's death: It's possible he didn't know what Norman's plans were, or that Gwen survived the ordeal.
Where is Gwen now? 1) She starved to death, unable to escape, in some lair that Norman was never able to come back to. Boo. 2) She is in stasis someplace that Norman forgot about, never went back to or did go back to - but it has been shared yet. 3) She escaped.
If she's alive, why did she disappear? The most compelling reason is the world thought she was dead, and she was just as happy to let them keep thinking that. It could be she is terrified of Norman and/or Harry. Norman may have confirmed Spider-Man's identity (and his own) while they were alone, or her suspicions were to strong to ignore.
They are close enough it get married to a guy she thinks is Spiderman, was just directly terrorized by his enemy and she just lost her dad is another Spiderman related incident. Maybe she doesn't want to be Mrs. Spiderman. Norman may or may not remember, but he's not telling Peter. More Goblin attacks over the months and years keep her scared. Quite honestly, a lot of crazy shit happens to this small group of friends from New York.
Why fear Harry? Harry went nuts after his dad died. It's plausible he went around to different hideouts and cleaned up what he could. Like everyone else - he thought Gwen dead. It's also plausible that if Gwen heard the door open, she'd hide and seeing Harry, think he was helping his dad.
He could have done something to tip her off that it was safe to come out -like leaving a newspaper talking about Norman's and her death behind that she read, or she could overhear heard Harry talking about it.
How to tie together? This is open - but the easiest way would be finding the hidden lair Gwen was dropped at and finding evidence of survival there. Examples include: small footprints in the dust, a newspaper dated immediately after her death with her fingerprints in the ink, personal items left behind (i.e. bracelet) that Peter could potentially recognize, or Gwen herself in a stasis chamber. If there was proof of life after her time of death - Peter could chase it down...or she could simply choose to reach out to Peter or MJ.
Other details: In issue 121/122 - there are two variants in clothing between what she wears when alive, and what she wears when dead. A belt shown when she's visiting the hospital, disappears on the bridge, and reappears with the Gwen clone in 144. A single bracelet is shown on her wrist on page 1 of 121, and similar styles are shown (i.e. 87, 90) throughout the run. It's also on the flashback page in 121. She is not wearing it on top of the tower, or in any panel afterwards. The Gwen clone that shares her fashion sense has a different bracelet all together, and the handbag that was left in the apartment.
Gwen's clothing, and relevant items from her apartment (like the pumpkin bomb, her handbag, the belt, etc.) would likely have been checked into police evidence.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2015 19:28:50 GMT
For me Sins Past is the low point. It has to go. It's a bolt on story that tries to give her depth through scandal - but it's so far away from the existing narrative. You know? People who say this is a good comic, often miss that point, that's the short and long of it, it wasn't complete garbage, in the sense that JMS obviously knows how to write dialogs and is competent in other basic areas of writing, but the plot… The rest of your post isn't completely clear to me, is that a proposal for a retcon? Is it a fanfic piece? At what point does your story diverge from known continuity?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2015 20:00:34 GMT
Ok, so we're talking about the stage after a retcon, without actually getting to the nitty gritty details of how it would work. In that case, my next question would be, does she find out about Spider-Man, before or after, the bridge?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2015 23:37:33 GMT
Gwen suspected Peter of being Spider-Man, but never confronted him. Of course you can't discard completely, the notion that her character COULD have suspected the truth, but I think that'd be some kind of retcon (akin to MJ's in Parallel Lives). And when does the suspicion transform into certainty? I take it we're talking events to come after the bridge. And speaking of that event, the story diverges at that point, right?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 10, 2015 15:05:59 GMT
Of course we'd still need more. We're at an early stage, compiling ideas, seeing how they might work together.
In story time, no more than five years had elapsed, between death and return, of the Green Goblin.
As for someone telling Peter to get lost, or his alter-ego, more precisely, MJ pretty much did that, at the end of Goblin Nation.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 10, 2015 20:53:41 GMT
A reasonable gap between The Goblin grabbing Gwen and Peter finding them on the bridge exists. At the time of the abduction, Spider-Man was just several blocks away from his upper-east-side pad. The search only took three panels, how much time could that be? It was never specified. The range of his spider-sense is VERY elastic, and depends on the whims of the writer. There's also a thread for it Furthermore, in the Amazing Spider-Man from the beginning, there was some digging done, about the range when picking up the signal, from the spider-tracers. In any case, what we would need to know, is how much time elapsed in those three aforementioned panels. My bet would be that we're talking of just a few minutes, but yours is as good as mine. ASM #121 is the only source of information on the subject.
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Post by vixx on Jun 10, 2015 22:15:55 GMT
Based on a couple of small details, combined with the pacing of the entire arc (which I believe happens in one day) - I think it reasonably could have had a gap of no more than 1 to 2 hrs between discovering her gone and finding them on the bridge. I think a beeline is highly unlikely.
The spidey sense part is throwing me a bit; I can understand why it would pick up Norman on a bridge with a victim at his feet..but don't believe it could peer into a hideout as he swung overhead like ground penetrating radar - especially with a head cold. Initially, he's a couple of blocks away - but his sense doesn't trigger when she's grabbed. I'm using that as a baseline assumption. Even if it got amped up becasue of the situation, and the cold had no affect -we are likely talking 5 to 6 blocks, not miles.
It's possible he tore ass around the city for an hour before picking Norman's trail up after he emerged from hiding, and it would still fit the daylight and pacing for the story that has him collapsing at MJs.
Something unexplained happened between being grabbed and winding up on the bridge to make her not only unconcious - but completely unaware of her surroundings, and unresponsive to being crashed into hard enough to shoot off the side of the bridge. She's either drugged (gassed) or dead.
Dead is unlikely - as when she's pulled up, she's obviously not cold to the touch.
Peter gets to Robbie after he pulled the story off the wire, but before her can confirm it - despite their being numerous reporters there filing stories. JJJ is there. Robbie is drinking coffee - it make be after lunch, as Peter met with them earlier in the day.
At the scene there are number cars, bumper to bumper, on the bridge, and they are in a straight line, with no one outside of their cars pointing to the sky - that makes it appear to be rush hour and places them very high up and easy to miss from that angle.
There are lights on in numerous panels, and smoke coming from different stacks. When Peter leaves the Bugle, there are birds in the sky. People are wearing jackets and sweaters, but the ground is clear of snow and appears dry - pointing to a March/April timeframe - which helps frame the time of day throughout the arc.
The apartment is in the upper east side. The lair is the lower east side, and in a different (similar) building than the one Harry goes to a few issues later. The warehouse is downtown, close enough to the Hudson River to smell it. The Bridge is either in Brooklyn or up by the left top of the island - depending on which is canon. and hes coming home from uptown.
No idea how fast the glider is, but I'm guessing it has the potential to be faster than webs and swinging. Norman also knows where he's going.
The alternative is Norman snapped her neck at the apartment and went right to the bridge with Spiderman close behind. The whole fight is over in minutes.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 10, 2015 22:57:22 GMT
Maybe it'll be helpful to point out that, the previous meeting Peter had at the Bugle, was a "late-date appointment". Almost as late as it is around here, time to hit the sack I'll take a look at you (heavily) edited post tomorrow. Good work.
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Post by vixx on Jun 11, 2015 0:08:12 GMT
That lines up, I read that as late day meeting, so anytime afternoon... Fits with Robbie and JJ being there later, and still having daylight, getting the pics in with enough time to make the next or late addition.
Norman is shown talking to his broker before going to his lair - for reference the stock market closes at 4pm.
Couple more points - than I'm done with the research and post.
We know after Gwen dies, Peter makes his way to Robbie, who confirms Goblin was seen 40 min ago at his downtown warehouse. Plenty of time to work on other stuff, make a stop off, etc. ..and that timer starts from when he was noticed, not necessarily when he arrived.
That's the same downtown warehouse Harry drops by later. Gwen could have hidden and followed him out (or is in a big mason jar in suspended animation there or someplace close by)
I believe the Brooklyn Bridge is canon (as depicted in the art) that's very close to the warehouse, which sounds like it's near the Hudson side.
Plot it out on a map of New York. Manhattan is 13.5 miles by 2.5 miles. The glider can go up to 90mph (per Marvels Database, assume the old model is slower)- Spidey has been quoted with a all out top speed of 36mph. (This was referenced from a doc ock story - 2 miles away, or 3.3min by webline)
In the fight with Norman at the warehouse - Norman never states he killed her. He asks a philosophical question about the value of one girls life etc. Even if he changed his story later - he could have just been lying to draw out the ruse.
And there is president of him thinking this way - having kidnapped May and replaced her with an actress until she died.
After reviewing the books in detail - the lynchpin is making a believable "dead" Gwen, if that is doable (it has to still be "intact" 2 years later for issue 145) - the rest is plausible based on the remainder of the series.
It kind of fits with the theatrics of it all - Is it possible Norman knew he'd survive the impaling? a big public death that no one questions lets Norman go underground, and robs Spiderman of his soon to be wife? Kind of silly to send a glider at someone that can sense danger and respond quickly... and stand right in front of it. I doubt Norman would consider Harry's feelings in any of this .. "_"
Not sure how much time Norman would need to:
Monologue about their identities a bit and knock her out Go from the apartment to a lair Drop her off Put her clothes on the "Dead" Gwen clone (possibly forgetting her belt, unless she left it at the apartment) Load her up and head to the bridge Drop her off and wait for Spiderman to find him (with only his Spider Sense to guide him anywhere in the city)
Figure 20 to 30 min, min
After the incident, he'd have to: Go to where she is
either
Put her in the machine Hide her (somewhere REALLY good) or silence her Hide her (again pretty well) then Go to the warehouse (if she is stashed someplace else) Fight and die
He has at least 40 minutes in-between being seen and it being reported, plus the time it takes Spiderman to get to the location, plus the difference between arrival and being spotted (which seemed planned). Hes got time to spare, shown sitting at a bench.
If she's at the warehouse She wakes up after Spiderman leaves before Harry leaves Either sneaks out after the cops leaves or before they get there
If she's not at the warehouse She can wake up at anytime Leave enough evidence to be found Not so much that Harry notices when he visits Either she follow Harry out, or is free to leave at anytime (given how many lairs are found over the years, it doesn't appear they all have state of the art security, and Harry won't remember in any great detail where hes been
The problem with the warehouse as a location is: it known and has been gone over by the cops It's in use, Spidey confirms its dusted by soap (so unlikely there is evidence) There really isn't a lot of time for her to wake up, form a plan, decide to run and sneak out Harry goes there which is good, but he never mentioned finding anything about her - which is bad. He really only knows what's in the journal.
If she's in stasis, they would simply need to slate the building (warehouse or not) for mandatory demolition and find the room during walk through, or after the buildings been cleared and they are digging a new foundation. Would really mess with Spidey - not finding her, thinking of her floating in a tank for a couple of years...Norman taunting him for finally figuring it out, ragging on him for moving on so quickly
I'm done, think there is enough here to say yay or nay on the plausibility. The timeline needs to really make basic sense (bulletproof) without being crazy.
Next step, if yay, is to flesh out the story between the panels, pick an outcome and determine what would needed to be added, then determine if its unknown or contradictory to anything that's already been explained. From there ...build a story on the forum.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2015 12:40:13 GMT
Goblin takes Gwen someplace before taking her to the tower.There are small details that could support the gap taking up to a couple of hours. Jackal (or ??) was instructed, at some point, to provide a "dead" clone body that matched Gwen.Because it's essentially an organic prop - you many not have the disintegration, and can modify the fingerprints to match. […] It could have been created months or years prior, and help explain why Warren became so fixed on Gwen. Norman would have loved watching Peter suffer, all while knowing the real Gwen was in one of his lairs.[…] He obviously would have had some plans for her once he returned (ew.) , or at the very least she was worth something to him alive. What if Norman didn't plan this, instead just flipping out and grabbing the first target he finds:Jackal being distraught about Gwen's death:It's possible he didn't know what Norman's plans were, or that Gwen survived the ordeal. Where is Gwen now?
2) She is in stasis someplace that Norman forgot about, never went back to or did go back to - but it has been shared yet. […] Norman may or may not remember, but he's not telling Peter. Seven points: - Essential, it's the best way to keep her alive, because it means that the character, up to the bridge scene, WAS Gwen, but not the one we saw there.
- This point has two derivates. First, it should be Warren, as we've speculated here. Second, the disintegration and fingerprints issues, have to be addressed.
- The most simple motivation for Norman to do this, instead of just killing her, is that he gets to "kill" her more than once. His original plan would be, to wait for Peter to rebuild his life, and only then, reintroduce her to further mess with Spider-Man.
- This was the Green Goblin's MO at the time, but we need him to be the mastermind behind the curtains. Pity.
- Obvioulsy.
- I'd go with having her in stasis, that way nothing has happened to the character off panel, and we get to witness all the story unfold.
- He'd choose not to tell him (point III), but with OMD, he'd forget all about it. He'd have someone watching over the project, and this guy could simply die in a car accident. With no one to pay the bills, the technicians from Con Ed would have a field day, when they tried to disconnect the client, from the grid.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2015 13:10:33 GMT
In the fight with Norman at the warehouse - Norman never states he killed her. He asks a philosophical question about the value of one girls life etc. Even if he changed his story later - he could have just been lying to draw out the ruse. And there is president of him thinking this way - having kidnapped May and replaced her with an actress until she died. More important, there's no though balloon to provide conclusive proof that he actually killed her. I also noticed, that he doesn't even explicitly say he did it, and anything said in the 90's can be chalked up, to mind games. The aunt May precedent is the reason why, I think Norman should be the one behind it all. As for the exact sequence of events, it'd go like this: - He recovers his memory, but before leaving, to kidnap Gwen, he calls "his guy" to wait for him at the lab, where they have the clone.
- He kidnaps Gwen and goes to the lab, leaves her there under his subordinate's care, and goes to the bridge with the clone.
- After coming back from the grave, he reunites again with the guy in charge of the project. He's going away to Europe, which leaves his employee as the only one responsible, of keeping her in stasis.
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Post by vixx on Jun 11, 2015 13:37:16 GMT
Two comments - He didn't know she'd be be the one at the boys apartment. He went there looking for Spiderman, and grabbed her out of last minute opportunity. So he either had to have a couple of bodies ready to go for the various folks in Pete's life or was specifically ready for a case where he's going to wind up with Gwen. (I'm looking to avoid relying on anything having to do with Sins) There could be tubes with other experiments that have aged poorly in the last few years representing the main folks in Pete's life - and only one with a live person... or some sort of activator virus could make a real body resemble Gwen very quickly (which may be why she's asleep), etc. If the tube malfunctions, and lets her out ... she's free to wander out and be found, or produce a trail and disappear. Don't think you can have a custodian other than the drifter Norman kills to produce a body for the morgue. To many loose ends - they'd have to be loyal even when they think he's dead...and it could provide a link for when he wants to go straight. However ... A hidden experiment that turns up later from another era may be stronger - especially if she periodically wakes up and can see out the tank into the room.
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Post by vixx on Jun 11, 2015 13:50:15 GMT
Goblin takes Gwen someplace before taking her to the tower.There are small details that could support the gap taking up to a couple of hours. Jackal (or ??) was instructed, at some point, to provide a "dead" clone body that matched Gwen.Because it's essentially an organic prop - you many not have the disintegration, and can modify the fingerprints to match. […] It could have been created months or years prior, and help explain why Warren became so fixed on Gwen. Norman would have loved watching Peter suffer, all while knowing the real Gwen was in one of his lairs.[…] He obviously would have had some plans for her once he returned (ew.) , or at the very least she was worth something to him alive. What if Norman didn't plan this, instead just flipping out and grabbing the first target he finds:Jackal being distraught about Gwen's death:It's possible he didn't know what Norman's plans were, or that Gwen survived the ordeal. Where is Gwen now?
2) She is in stasis someplace that Norman forgot about, never went back to or did go back to - but it has been shared yet. […] Norman may or may not remember, but he's not telling Peter. Seven points: - Essential, it's the best way to keep her alive, because it means that the character, up to the bridge scene, WAS Gwen, but not the one we saw there.
- This point has two derivates. First, it should be Warren, as we've speculated here. Second, the disintegration and fingerprints issues, have to be addressed.
- The most simple motivation for Norman to do this, instead of just killing her, is that he gets to "kill" her more than once. His original plan would be, to wait for Peter to rebuild his life, and only then, reintroduce her to further mess with Spider-Man.
- This was the Green Goblin's MO at the time, but we need him to be the mastermind behind the curtains. Pity.
- Obvioulsy.
- I'd go with having her in stasis, that way nothing has happened to the character off panel, and we get to witness all the story unfold.
- He'd choose not to tell him (point III), but with OMD, he'd forget all about it. He'd have someone watching over the project, and this guy could simply die in a car accident. With no one to pay the bills, the technicians from Con Ed would have a field day, when they tried to disconnect the client, from the grid.
The finger print issue was covered in the first clone saga, it may be bad science - but it's already out there. It could be a real body made to look like Gwen or something about being "sentient" makes the body break down. Did the original Gwen clone melt? Also with OMD - she can't come back to life because she's not dead. Might even be why Mephisto wants him to be single lol Maybe if he chooses MJ again, he gets a reward.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2015 14:14:08 GMT
He didn't know she'd be be the one at the boys apartment. […] If he has help, I think the only one that works well would be the drifter he killed to have a body for the morgue […] he'd have to be awfully loyal to hang there and Warren most likely wouldn't have jumped off a room after a clone if he knew the real deal was alive. Maybe he did know, that was, after all, Norman's pad. Who's to say he didn't have the place bugged, during his first relapse, circa ASM #66? Norman's accomplice would have to be a scientist, someone he hired to help Warren and learn from him, so he could develop clones independently. More than loyal, he'd have to be well paid, and afraid of Norman. Both things seem to be easily between his grasp. The finger print issue was covered in the first clone saga, it may be bad science - but it's already out there. […] Did the original Gwen clone melt? Also with OMD - she can't come back to life because she's not dead. If we could fix that, why not do it? As for the original clone, later known as Joyce Delaney, she was shot and left for dead, but not melting. Maybe she wasn't dead, maybe she wasn't a real clone, maybe she had not melted yet. I'm lost, about the connection between OMD and Gwen, being dead or alive.
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Post by vixx on Jun 11, 2015 14:43:42 GMT
Ok - how about this:
He has female helper who was working with a virus detailed in Stromm's notes (dead, no links) - It could be a generic that rewrites DNA (stem sell type research, even a precursor to Goblin Serum - which is an updated version that enhances the host as well, but has serious side effects), and it's activated only by adding a catalyst with source DNA before application. They know through prior testing that it works in principal, but has flaws to work out. The assistant warned Norman that their is no fail safe yet to safely prevent "overwriting someone" completely with the new DNA. Norman's injects her with it when her back is turned or by force. This early version half works, in that she is now a perfect replica of the original person (Gwen) - but it leaves her essentially "blank" (their memories over written) and knocked out (and she dies exactly as portrayed in 121). Becasue it's rewriting to the original specs - not growing from cells into a person (with all the variables that entails) - the fingerprints actually do match, as shown in 144. Peter still feels awful because he failed to save someone and snapped their neck - that person just isn't Gwen.
Being a real person, she wouldn't dissolve, and would look like a corpse, even years later. This leaves Warren free not to be involved, so he has no direct first hand knowledge of what happened with the helper or that Gwen is still alive. Osborn may send him these notes and some samples later, to aid his own work in the field, but he, predictably, fails to credit the source. This greatly advances Warren's work, streamlines what remains - explaining how he was able to get so far in his own research in only two years - he simply has to fix the memory problem and improve minor stability issues. These improvements allow someone to gain memories, but introduce the disintegration effect shown in later versions due to a chemical reaction introduced through memory writing, triggered by death. He, like Norman, see the "flaws" in being able to overwrite someone completely and have them turn to a pile of goo once they've served their purpose as a positive - a mechanism for control, and not worth refining out.
Norman may even "suggest" that poor girl on the bridge as a worthy subject - and provide DNA, claiming his son knew the girl through school - all the while knowing Warren had a thing for Gwen and that he would get overly attached by spending so much time in the lab working on her, and losing her again through all the failed experiments. This gives him an additional control mechanism over Warren - he's the sole source for the dead girls DNA.
Even knowing Gwen is actually alive, Norman would want this because he revels in the fact that Peter tortures himself over her death, and having fake Gwens show up makes it hard for Peter to move past Gwen and diminishes the joy of her actually coming back. He knows through losing his own wife how hard the grief process is. When the real one ever does turn up - Peter may send her away thinking she's just another fake. This would devastate Peter when Norman lets him know that he moved on so much, he couldn't even recogize the girl he was going to marry.
This also ties into "the one's girls life comment..." .. he didn't say "your girlfriend's life" or "Gwen's life"
On a side note -
The story in Sins may also be a planted fake - something to poison Peter with at a deeper level, so he rejects her if she ever shows up, never thinking that Peter would accept her back anyway - because Norman never would.
The twins are highly refined lab experiments - a combination of Gwen (or Gwen's mom) and Norman's DNA applied to high quality adult specimens though the process described above. His DNA made them crazy and gives them enhancements, but the Stacy DNA gives them the potential capacity for good. Their memories - for the most part are a construct, complete with everything known and needed to influence Peter.
Also - for detail... Maybe Gwen's mom was Stromm's original lab assistant, and whose DNA the original formula was tested on (blood samples that she may or may not have known about). Opens the door to actively target Gwen, as she'd be the closest female match, and needed for the ultimate prize - Norman getting perfect heirs.
OMD forget it..Flippant remark. Harry came back from the dead during that. Gwen didn't, even though the world kind of reset. If she's still alive - she couldn't comeback. She's still out there someplace...either bubbling away in a tank or in hiding. Mephisto would know this and ask for the one real thing (apparently other than demon magic) that could get between MJ and PP. Heh .. that story sucked lol
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