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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 13, 2015 17:48:47 GMT
That sounds way too convoluted, besides, where would Peter's false memories end and reality begin? It was all kind of interlaced, You know what? I don't recall anyone actually saying, that they never slept together, it was insinuated, but never overtly admitted. Pete said it after MJ told him, she was asking if the kids could be his... just remember him at the window You mean this panel?
The phrase isn't completed, because JMS felt silly even writing it, the option exists, to end the phrase as we please: - We never had unprotected sex.
- We never practiced reproduction-oriented sex (if you get my meaning).
- We never planned on having kids.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 13, 2015 17:53:07 GMT
Is there a spot where he had her? Perhaps at the hospital for the baby stuff? He could have a plant do it Did the nuralizer survive? He could always have another made, but would open questions on not using it in 600 issues He has had access to Peter forever - Think it's cleanest if it's broken up into small chunks - funding warren through wiping him is one Doing research at hitting a wall with it is two When you say "nuralizer", you mean brainwashing machine? Other than that, unless you quote the text your replies correspond to, I must admit I'm at a loss here. The same can probably be said, about anyone reading this.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 1:24:17 GMT
Is there a spot where he had her? Perhaps at the hospital for the baby stuff? He could have a plant do it Did the nuralizer survive? He could always have another made, but would open questions on not using it in 600 issues He has had access to Peter forever - Think it's cleanest if it's broken up into small chunks - funding warren through wiping him is one Doing research at hitting a wall with it is two When you say "nuralizer", you mean brainwashing machine? Other than that, unless you quote the text your replies correspond to, I must admit I'm at a loss here. The same can probably be said, about anyone reading this. Yes, the oscorp brain washing machine - heh sorry about the format; I'm a project manager - we deconstruct and break everything to the atomic level; interview notes are kind of the coin of the realm - didn't think about anyone trying to read this before its summarized. I think we poked enough holes and have enough to write a compelling outline based on the characters and their established patterns ...will put something together.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 1:29:19 GMT
Pete said it after MJ told him, she was asking if the kids could be his... just remember him at the window You mean this panel?
The phrase isn't completed, because JMS felt silly even writing it, the option exists, to end the phrase as we please: - We never had unprotected sex.
- We never practiced reproduction-oriented sex (if you get my meaning).
- We never planned on having kids.
I remember one looking out a window ... I think they wrote themselves in a corner - if they have sex( or isn't s virgin) , the babies could be peters and odder - he's be sleeping with a pregnant girl ... If not, it's not really believable. Either way she comes across as horrible -
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 6:05:22 GMT
The phrase isn't completed, because JMS felt silly even writing it, the option exists, to end the phrase as we please: - We never had unprotected sex.
- We never practiced reproduction-oriented sex (if you get my meaning).
- We never planned on having kids.
I remember one looking out a window ... I think they wrote themselves in a corner - if they have sex( or isn't s virgin) , the babies could be peters and odder - he's be sleeping with a pregnant girl ... If not, it's not really believable. Either way she comes across as horrible - The panel about her virginity was this one: In this case, even if we admit that the combination of pictures with the (again) unfinished phrase, leads clearly to the conclusion that Peter was, indeed, asking about that, it could just mean that he's having doubts where he didn't have any, before. For me, it's clear they had sex, and it's also clear they were virgins in the early 60's. Once we reach the end of the decade, they had sex, but if some "evidence" was presented, during Sins Past, that she had an affair while their relationship was on hiatus, the doubt of her losing her virginity with someone else appears. That doesn't mean she did, just that Peter was having doubts at that moment, because of MJ's "testimony", a couple of genetic abnormalities and a suspicious letter. The fact that all of that evidence was revealed at the same time, only two months (real time) after Osborn's incarceration, screams "hoax" to me. Whatever doubts the character had at that point, about the matter, were unfounded. As you can see, neither of those two panels refutes the common believe, from before SP, that they had sex in the course of their two year long (Marvel Time) relationship. As for the brainwashing machine, it was damaged, but the ones who said that it had actually exploded, were Spider-Man and Gwen. Neither of them being an authority on Wrinkler's invention, we can say whatever we want, about the extent of the damage, caused by the explosion.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 15:26:13 GMT
I remember one looking out a window ... I think they wrote themselves in a corner - if they have sex( or isn't s virgin) , the babies could be peters and odder - he's be sleeping with a pregnant girl ... If not, it's not really believable. Either way she comes across as horrible - The panel about her virginity was this one: In this case, even if we admit that the combination of pictures with the (again) unfinished phrase, leads clearly to the conclusion that Peter was, indeed, asking about that, it could just mean that he's having doubts where he didn't have any, before. For me, it's clear they had sex, and it's also clear they were virgins in the early 60's. Once we reach the end of the decade, they had sex, but if some "evidence" was presented, during Sins Past, that she had an affair while their relationship was on hiatus, the doubt of her losing her virginity with someone else appears. That doesn't mean she did, just that Peter was having doubts at that moment, because of MJ's "testimony", a couple of genetic abnormalities and a suspicious letter. The fact that all of that evidence was revealed at the same time, only two months (real time) after Osborn's incarceration, screams "hoax" to me. Whatever doubts the character had at that point, about the matter, were unfounded. As you can see, neither of those two panels refutes the common believe, from before SP, that they had sex in the course of their two year long (Marvel Time) relationship. As for the brainwashing machine, it was damaged, but the ones who said that it had actually exploded, were Spider-Man and Gwen. Neither of them being an authority on Wrinkler's invention, we can say whatever we want, about the extent of the damage, caused by the explosion. God what a poorly written story lol Ok - I think they wrote this with the intention of being able pulling it back... but weren't allowed.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 15:56:12 GMT
Consolidated Notes - 121 I think this is solid
After Norman has an episode he goes to his lair in the lower east side, at night He leaves looking for Spiderman the following morning He spots Gwen, enters the apartment and grabs her through the window. He leaves, heading for a lair Peter arrives shortly after, finds the scene Peter leaves, unsure where they are, looking for them by sight and sense (he appears to be heading north in the panels, Brooklyn Bridge is south) Norman drops off a passed out Gwen, changes her clothes onto the clone, loads up the clone and leaves (approx 10 to 15 min total) His helper starts loading her into the tank and connecting her to the machinery Enroute to the Brooklyn Bridge, Peter picks them up on tracking, and follows to the bridge (he moves slower than they do) Peter sees the Goblin, and Gwen is out of it the whole time They fight, she gets knocked over the side, he can't save her and breaks her neck. Goblin taunts about already being dead, leaves for hideout. Peter leaves, heads to Bugle, gets lead on Norman - last seen 40 min ago at warehouse. Goblin ready, they fight, Goblin taunts about one girls life Goblin dies. Cops on the scene, body removed, Harry strips the body, wakes up in morge, takes steps to leave the country
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 16:26:08 GMT
This is new - fairly solid.
Warren is a teacher with radical ideas on how human cloning can benefit humanity. Warren pitches Osborn on cloning. Osborn agrees to fund his research - motivated by military angle and later, his own legacy. A private lab is established, Warren gets to work with the help of his lab assistant. Warren meets Gwen, and they strike up a banter over science talk. She helps during labtime. Warren runs experiments, making progress. Warrens gets a sample of DNA. (Piece of gum, class project, cut herself on a broken beaker...etc) Warren's experiments escalate, he settles on using Gwen's DNA Warren (and assistant) create a perfect looking Gwen clone, but her mind is blank. They clean up the lab, and share their findings with Norman.
Notes:
ASM 31 focuses on Peter, but the teacher, university - have been there all along. There is a section in the original clone series of how they come out of the tank , and have to have their memories recovered through hypnosis. Gwen could have taken an early start program, volenteered during the summer, etc. very common for science majors. This makes her known to Warren out of a big university class - not in detail and gives a chance to collect her DNA We meet his assistant - who will be come the custodian Norman may think of cloning as a way to get the military interested in his rejected serum. Using it and the brainwash machine on clones makes super soldiers. If he can accomplish this without Stromm - he could lessen his reliance on him or push him out. I think at this point it's just Norman the businessman funding research.
I do think there needs to be a reason to use Gwen's DNA - either Warren has had problems with other samples, and hers works becasue of age, some genetic predisposition, etc. Nothing perverted, just want to get rid of why he wouldn't use his own, and resrt to getting it secretly from his student. Think he discovers this in the test tube phase - before moving on to the machinery. If she's a lab helper or friendly with him about his passion - it's more believable that out of all his students, she's the one he uses.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 17:12:37 GMT
Consolidated Notes - 121 I think this is solid After Norman has an episode he goes to his lair in the lower east side, at night He leaves looking for Spiderman the following morning
He spots Gwen, enters the apartment and grabs her through the window. He leaves, heading for a lair Peter arrives shortly after, finds the scene Peter leaves, unsure where they are, looking for them by sight and sense (he appears to be heading north in the panels, Brooklyn Bridge is south)Norman drops off a passed out Gwen, changes her clothes onto the clone, loads up the clone and leaves (approx 10 to 15 min total) His helper starts loading her into the tank and connecting her to the machinery Enroute to the Brooklyn Bridge, Peter picks them up on tracking, and follows to the bridge (he moves slower than they do) Peter sees the Goblin, and Gwen is out of it the whole time They fight, she gets knocked over the side, he can't save her and breaks her neck. Goblin taunts about already being dead, leaves for hideout. Peter leaves, heads to Bugle, gets lead on Norman - last seen 40 min ago at warehouse. Goblin ready, they fight, Goblin taunts about one girls life Goblin dies. Cops on the scene, body removed, Harry strips the body, wakes up in morge, takes steps to leave the country Are you sure about the bolded part? The rest is good to go, I would just mention that the lair where Norman's helper takes over Gwen, is in a different location than the warehouse, and that the GG called him before going hunting (it's not like the guy lives there).
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 18:42:58 GMT
Consolidated Notes - 121 I think this is solid After Norman has an episode he goes to his lair in the lower east side, at night He leaves looking for Spiderman the following morning
He spots Gwen, enters the apartment and grabs her through the window. He leaves, heading for a lair Peter arrives shortly after, finds the scene Peter leaves, unsure where they are, looking for them by sight and sense (he appears to be heading north in the panels, Brooklyn Bridge is south)Norman drops off a passed out Gwen, changes her clothes onto the clone, loads up the clone and leaves (approx 10 to 15 min total) His helper starts loading her into the tank and connecting her to the machinery Enroute to the Brooklyn Bridge, Peter picks them up on tracking, and follows to the bridge (he moves slower than they do) Peter sees the Goblin, and Gwen is out of it the whole time They fight, she gets knocked over the side, he can't save her and breaks her neck. Goblin taunts about already being dead, leaves for hideout. Peter leaves, heads to Bugle, gets lead on Norman - last seen 40 min ago at warehouse. Goblin ready, they fight, Goblin taunts about one girls life Goblin dies. Cops on the scene, body removed, Harry strips the body, wakes up in morge, takes steps to leave the country Are you sure about the bolded part? The rest is good to go, I would just mention that the lair where Norman's helper takes over Gwen, is in a different location than the warehouse, and that the GG called him before going hunting (it's not like the guy lives there). Pretty sure, depends on how much faith you put in the inking - The sky is black when he runs down the street to the first lair, which is different than the one downtown,, and blue then he's shown on the glider heading for Gwen, and orange later in 122 when hes heading for the final showdown. I read that as showing this all happens in one day. We know this lab is in the Lower East Side, not downtown, it could be the main complex and the cloning stuff is what he was getting ready. The helper could move her multiple times over the years - think he exchanges her at whereever makes the most sense to support a window between Peter searching and finding her. The link we are trying to break is that he went from the apartment straight to the bridge I think a misnomer is she died at night - when in reality he's back at MJ's around 8pm or so. To Peter, and the reader, it's her death that defines that day. I read the opening of 123 and Harry grabbing the clothing immediately following Peter leaving for MJ's (i.e. same day) not the next morning. Think the next day starts when the newspaper headlines talking about it are shown.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 18:48:46 GMT
This is new - fairly solid. Warren is a teacher with radical ideas on how human cloning can benefit humanity. Warren pitches Osborn on cloning. Osborn agrees to fund his research - motivated by military angle and later, his own legacy. A private lab is established, Warren gets to work with the help of his lab assistant. Warren meets Gwen, and they strike up a banter over science talk. She helps during labtime.
Warren runs experiments, making progress. Warrens gets a sample of DNA. (Piece of gum, class project, cut herself on a broken beaker...etc)Warren's experiments escalate, he settles on using Gwen's DNAWarren (and assistant) create a perfect looking Gwen clone, but her mind is blank. They clean up the lab, and share their findings with Norman. Notes: ASM 31 focuses on Peter, but the teacher, university - have been there all along. There is a section in the original clone series of how they come out of the tank , and have to have their memories recovered through hypnosis. Gwen could have taken an early start program, volenteered during the summer, etc. very common for science majors. This makes her known to Warren out of a big university class - not in detail and gives a chance to collect her DNA
We meet his assistant - who will be come the custodian Norman may think of cloning as a way to get the military interested in his rejected serum. Using it and the brainwash machine on clones makes super soldiers. If he can accomplish this without Stromm - he could lessen his reliance on him or push him out.
I think at this point it's just Norman the businessman funding research. I do think there needs to be a reason to use Gwen's DNA - either Warren has had problems with other samples, and hers works becasue of age, some genetic predisposition, etc. Nothing perverted, just want to get rid of why he wouldn't use his own, and resrt to getting it secretly from his student. Think he discovers this in the test tube phase - before moving on to the machinery. If she's a lab helper or friendly with him about his passion - it's more believable that out of all his students, she's the one he uses. The military angle sounds too much like Ultimate Green Goblin, Norman didn't need all this to push Stromm out, because he already did that before becoming the GG. I think he would just approach it as a way to reach immortality. Such an idea may not have crossed the mind of businessman Osborn, but after the lab accident that turned him into the GG, it makes sense. The business interest (involving the military angle if you want) would just be a sales pitch, to get Warren's partnership. The way I see it, Miles gives a conference on cloning, and Norman is the one to approach Miles, not the other way around. Human cloning stands on dubious moral/legal ground, so maybe having the military as a goal (even a fake one), could be a way to get a university professor, to agree on its research. After succeeding with animal cloning, Norman insists on being taken as the first subject for human cloning, this fails because of the Goblin Serum. Warren suggests to try with his students' DNA, although he would only provide clones without higher brain function. Osborn, frustrated, agrees. The samples are obtained, as seen in ASM #148 (flashback). After ASM #40, the Green Goblin is forgotten, but the clone project keeps going, Norman now sees it purely as a business. In ASM# 62, the brainwashing machine is damaged, but Osborn assigns its repair to Winkler's team. Around ASM #66, Norman, now in the GG persona, checks the status of the clone project, the clones are maturing nicely, but Warren refuses to continue without government approval (which doesn't exist). Norman brainwashes him to forget about the human cloning, disposes of the "brainless" clones, but keeps the Gwen one, for when its ready. The lab is cleaned of all the equipment/notes, that indicate how far the project went, but is left under Warren's "control", as an attempt to keep appearances. The Gwen clone, along with the majority of the most advanced equipment, is relocated under the supervision of Warren's assistant (Norman's accomplice). We now jump to ASM #97, after a brief battle with Spider-Man, the GG leaves him for dead and re-evaluates his goals. If he can't achieve immortality, he will at least secure a better progeny. He plans on using his own sperm, and chooses Gwen as the "mother", because her female DNA, is the only one at hand, that has any symbolic value. It also amuses him, what the heck. Warren's assistant admits he can't do it alone, but he has access to the old lab, which Warren is still programmed to attend sporadically, and if need be, Winkler's machine can be used again, to reprogram Miles and help him out. This is where the repeated brainwashing, will damage Warren's psyche. By the time of TNGSD, her clone will be fully matured, Warren will be over the edge and the twins will be ready to travel.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 19:01:04 GMT
Are you sure about the bolded part? The rest is good to go, I would just mention that the lair where Norman's helper takes over Gwen, is in a different location than the warehouse, and that the GG called him before going hunting (it's not like the guy lives there). Pretty sure, depends on how much faith you put in the inking - The sky is black when he runs down the street to the first lair, which is different than the one downtown,, and blue then he's shown on the glider heading for Gwen, and orange later in 122 when hes heading for the final showdown. I read that as showing this all happens in one day. The helper could move her multiple times over the years - think he exchanges her at whereever makes the most sense to support a window between Peter searching and finding her. The link we are trying to break is that he went from the apartment straight to the bridge I think a misnomer is she died at night - when in reality he's back at MJ's around 8pm or so. To Peter, and the reader, it's her death that defines that day. I read the opening of 123 and Harry grabbing the clothing immediately following Peter leaving for MJ's (i.e. same day) not the next morning. Think the next day starts when the newspaper headlines talking about it are shown. But in the first post you concluded that: I was in agreement with this. The coloring probably can't be trusted, to reflect daylight, but the narrative states that everything unfolded the same day.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 19:38:34 GMT
that's good - you need older samples - the ones from 148 have memory from right before she died, meaning the were harvested much later. Think there needs to be something special about Gwen with relation to the cloning - maybe hers is the only one out of a batch that reacts positively to the blood. This would explain why Norman targets her vs Goblin targeting her for the connection to Spiderman and make a more palatable story for todays times - Warren, so far, is a pure scientists, he marvels at this pure girl that through a 1 in a zillion gentetic fluke makes his vision possible. That motivation can get corrupted by the brainwashing machine into he's into her. Explains why, even years later, the twins aren't pure Norman and have Gwen DNA. Warren could setup a class project about blood types - where the students prick their fingers and type themselves. That could be why Norman he turns on Warren - Warren would be able to examine a Norman clone failure and figure out something is very wrong with his blood. The rules are - 1) The brainwashing machine, cloning chamber (clones), and goblin blood are incompatible with each other. Norman never gets the abililty to make perfect clones he can reprogram at will. Best be can do is grow compatible super clones that are a little defective He could zap the assistant and turn her into a brainless single minded curator or kill her.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 19:40:39 GMT
Pretty sure, depends on how much faith you put in the inking - The sky is black when he runs down the street to the first lair, which is different than the one downtown,, and blue then he's shown on the glider heading for Gwen, and orange later in 122 when hes heading for the final showdown. I read that as showing this all happens in one day. The helper could move her multiple times over the years - think he exchanges her at whereever makes the most sense to support a window between Peter searching and finding her. The link we are trying to break is that he went from the apartment straight to the bridge I think a misnomer is she died at night - when in reality he's back at MJ's around 8pm or so. To Peter, and the reader, it's her death that defines that day. I read the opening of 123 and Harry grabbing the clothing immediately following Peter leaving for MJ's (i.e. same day) not the next morning. Think the next day starts when the newspaper headlines talking about it are shown. But in the first post you concluded that: I was in agreement with this. The coloring probably can't be trusted, to reflect daylight, but the narrative states that everything unfolded the same day. Checkout 121 - before he goes looking for Peter - he's cracking up after Harry colapses the night before (or at like 3 in the morning) it's pich black with a moon shown on one page. It's blue and daytime when he leaves, and Peter (same time in a different place) has flying birds in his panels on the way back from the bugle. IMO he clearly didn't crack, jump on his glider and go after them immediately. He stewed in a hideout for a bit before deciding going after them was the winning strategy.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 19:56:24 GMT
you need older samples - the ones from 148 have memory from right before she died, meaning the were harvested much later. Think there needs to be something special about Gwen with relation to the cloning - maybe hers is the only one out of a batch that reacts positively to the blood. This would explain why Norman targets her vs Goblin targeting her for the connection to Spiderman and make a more palatable story for todays times - Warren, so far, is a pure scientists, he marvels at this pure girl that through a 1 in a zillion gentetic fluke makes his vision possible. That motivation can get corrupted by the brainwashing machine into he's into her. Explains why, even years later, the twins aren't pure Norman and have Gwen DNA. The thing about her memories being "intact but buried" is such a load of crap, that it can't be even addressed, to maintain a basic modicum of scientific "appeal". As for making Gwen's a special case, I'm not in favor of coincidences, but we can pitch the idea, see what others think.
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