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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 10, 2016 15:44:08 GMT
I suggested some sort of trigger - because once those memories come back - it would be like she always had them ... But when exposed, she never would have lied to Peter about something so big that's she would of had to of known since before they were dating She would have the memories of the event, but she would also need to have false memories about all the times she felt like sharing, but didn't. That's some memory rewriting! Technically, if she had false memories since she was kidnapped, she would only have lied from that point forward, which could explain why she didn't say anything. She'd have the memories, but no recollection of why she didn't say anything before. At that point in their relationship, the best thing she could do was keep it secret. The letter would be the excuse she needed to tell, rather than a trigger.
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Post by vixx on Jul 10, 2016 16:12:40 GMT
I suggested some sort of trigger - because once those memories come back - it would be like she always had them ... But when exposed, she never would have lied to Peter about something so big that's she would of had to of known since before they were dating She would have the memories of the event, but she would also need to have false memories about all the times she felt like sharing, but didn't. That's some memory rewriting! Technically, if she had false memories since she was kidnapped, she would only have lied from that point forward, which could explain why she didn't say anything. She'd have the memories, but no recollection of why she didn't say anything before. At that point in their relationship, the best thing she could do was keep it secret. The letter would be the excuse she needed to tell, rather than a trigger. Ok that makes sense - not telling earlier ( she's known sense pre 100?) would just be one of the memories that was added
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 11, 2016 13:49:05 GMT
Norman, Winkler and Warren are meeting regularly - and have many plans and theories on how to overcome project limitations. One topic they seem to avoid - is how more and more “Gwen” DNA is going to be needed in the future. More than can be grown in a lab. Is this necessary? In the end, Norman grabs Gwen out of a GG tantrum. It doesn't really work as a reason. Furthermore, it sounds weird that they can grow full clones, but can't clone enough “Gwen material".
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Post by vixx on Jul 11, 2016 13:58:54 GMT
Norman, Winkler and Warren are meeting regularly - and have many plans and theories on how to overcome project limitations. One topic they seem to avoid - is how more and more “Gwen” DNA is going to be needed in the future. More than can be grown in a lab. Is this necessary? In the end, Norman grabs Gwen out of a GG tantrum. It doesn't really work as a reason. Furthermore, it sounds weird that they can grow full clones, but can't clone enough “Gwen material". Clones aren't original source material - and everyone else they are cloning is located onsite... point is during the clone saga they are pumping these things out wholesale ... Trying to show they are outgrowing capacity rapidly with one Gwen body, and 3 non Gwen clones (and the hundreds of experiments and iterations to support that) Plus you figure 90% of what they make winds up in the trash - as a blood sample may not be the best source to start with ... They'd make a lot of their breakthroughs on from the modified Warren clone, and imprinting memory ( which in subsequent stories appears to be the most difficult) is likely different still - the hole is they could crank out bodies with what they have at a slow and steady pace; but without access to the source getting a post accident Norman isn't likely to happen I think he knows what having her on hand could do for the project, problems at oscorp, his legacy, etc. hurting Peter is a bonus. It's basically a modification of the alterior motivation that exists post sins - ie there can be ither reasons than hurting Peter to grab her and still preserve the weight of the story. GG freak out pushes him over the edge and kind of ends the internal debate - sane Norman wouldn't want to take the risk unless every other option is exhausted.. As it's essentially betting the company - if he's discovered, oscorp is done Big difference between actually doing it and talking about doing it. One thing I'm a bit fuzzy on is how much Norman stuff goblin remembers - in some panels it's nothing, in others (121) he knows oscorp is in trouble and (98) Harry is his son
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 11, 2016 14:38:33 GMT
I get the difference between original and cloned material, but even in reality, you can grow cell stacks out of a patient. If they have their DNA samples, they should be able to get all the additional samples they'd need.
Give me a particular example, of one procedure that would require access to the real Gwen. Something they can't do without her on site.
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Post by vixx on Jul 11, 2016 15:40:30 GMT
I get the difference between original and cloned material, but even in reality, you can grow cell stacks out of a patient. If they have their DNA samples, they should be able to get all the additional samples they'd need. Give me a particular example, of one procedure that would require access to the real Gwen. Something they can't do without her on site. Memory transfer and every change required to figure out how to make it work Getting the hybrid clones to work, blood may not work They do a bunch of stuff in real cloning with the donor - it's like 500 to 1 just to get a viable sample that likely will fail Think the could make bodies slowly with what they have, but there would be a lot of time, effort and imperfections.. And each one would represent 500 failures. Think with Warren, they could even make a really good one - because he's in the lab to act as a control Think they could attempt others - but without her there it will never be a streamlined process... And they wouldn't advance much farther than the bodies for the Hybrid ... And no chance at Osborn or Peter First time blood tissue fails, they are toast - especially if she's their Rosetta Stone ( they may need eggs, marrow, etc) Think with her, they can ramp to scale and (while out of scope) produce the Gwen clone ... Not buying hypnosis ..no way that clone came out of the ESU lab , with matching fingerprints, perfect memories, minimal disintegration, etc It was likely put there - to create an illusion of success. Even just to protect the main plan as a viable front. Hypnosis recovered what already existed - overcoming the mind wipe If I guessed - blood lets them stumble through, identify the unique traits, and figure it out.. But marrow is what makes things thrive
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 11, 2016 16:19:51 GMT
Memory transfer and every change required to figure out how to make it work I thought she was special for the cloning process (decaying). Making her a special case for memory integration may be too much. Getting the hybrid clones to work, blood may not work It's obvious that the sample they got from the students wasn't blood, or they could never have made clones out of it (I know this is science-fiction, but still). Something like... embryonic stem cells? They do a bunch of stuff in real cloning with the donor - it's like 500 to 1 just to get a viable sample that likely will fail But once you have a fully formed clone, you can get 500 or 5000, it doesn't matter. At this point in the script, they already have "a perfect “blank” Gwen". Think the could make bodies slowly with what they have, but there would be a lot of time, effort and imperfections. And each one would represent 500 failures. That's convenience, not need. Still, it could be worked into business need. Think with Warren, they could even make a really good one - because he's in the lab to act as a control Nah, even then he wasn't as good as Gwen's blank clone. Think they could attempt others - but without her there it will never be a streamlined process... And they wouldn't advance much farther than the bodies for the Hybrid ... And no chance at Osborn or Peter Again the economy angle, probably the best bet. Can you rewrite it with that in mind?First time blood tissue fails, they are toast - especially if she's their Rosetta Stone ( they may need eggs, marrow, etc) But it didn't, they made the clone. Think with her, they can ramp to scale and (while out of scope) produce the Gwen clone ... Not buying hypnosis ..no way that clone came out of the ESU lab , with matching fingerprints, perfect memories, minimal disintegration, etc Me neither, that's all getting retconned with the story as is. It was likely put there - to create an illusion of success. Even just to protect the main plan as a viable front. Hypnosis recovered what already existed - overcoming the mind wipe If I guessed - blood lets them stumble through, identify the unique traits, and figure it out.. But marrow is what makes things thrive Out of the scope of the main story, but something along those lines. Forget blood. Let's leave it at "samples", more vague and flexible.
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Post by vixx on Jul 11, 2016 17:19:39 GMT
Memory transfer and every change required to figure out how to make it work I thought she was special for the cloning process (decaying). Making her a special case for memory integration may be too much. Getting the hybrid clones to work, blood may not work It's obvious that the sample they got from the students wasn't blood, or they could never have made clones out of it (I know this is science-fiction, but still). Something like... embryonic stem cells? They do a bunch of stuff in real cloning with the donor - it's like 500 to 1 just to get a viable sample that likely will fail But once you have a fully formed clone, you can get 500 or 5000, it doesn't matter. At this point in the script, they already have "a perfect “blank” Gwen". Think the could make bodies slowly with what they have, but there would be a lot of time, effort and imperfections. And each one would represent 500 failures. That's convenience, not need. Still, it could be worked into business need. Think with Warren, they could even make a really good one - because he's in the lab to act as a control Nah, even then he wasn't as good as Gwen's blank clone. Think they could attempt others - but without her there it will never be a streamlined process... And they wouldn't advance much farther than the bodies for the Hybrid ... And no chance at Osborn or Peter Again the economy angle, probably the best bet. Can you rewrite it with that in mind?First time blood tissue fails, they are toast - especially if she's their Rosetta Stone ( they may need eggs, marrow, etc) But it didn't, they made the clone. Think with her, they can ramp to scale and (while out of scope) produce the Gwen clone ... Not buying hypnosis ..no way that clone came out of the ESU lab , with matching fingerprints, perfect memories, minimal disintegration, etc Me neither, that's all getting retconned with the story as is. It was likely put there - to create an illusion of success. Even just to protect the main plan as a viable front. Hypnosis recovered what already existed - overcoming the mind wipe If I guessed - blood lets them stumble through, identify the unique traits, and figure it out.. But marrow is what makes things thrive Out of the scope of the main story, but something along those lines. Forget blood. Let's leave it at "samples", more vague and flexible. In the interest of simplicity lets look at the original stuff After 121 - a perfect clone (Gwen) shows up from nowhere within 2 years, Peter (Ben) with his odd genes shows up shortly after and the clone army from Star Wars eventually shows up... Those suckers are getting cranked out pretty rapidly.. And eventually you get the wonder twins. So we simply need to explain why the leap in knowledge between 61 ( roughly the time the blank Gwen shows up. I think they knew that having her would do this - but it took GG to actually pull the trigger. By knowing a viable process - they could expand the number of experiments in different ways - beyond the simple sample. Why it would work ... Could be a million reasons or a combination of them - but once they have the process; they'd expand and refine it Memory transfer by it self seems simple enough that it pops up all the time.. But rarely is it successful (long term) to another person We have that one story (mentioned on research post) where Norman and Harry are in a supercomputer - but use advanced robots to interface with the RW. I think it's reasonable that the memory transfer issue is a physical issue... Either in making the bodies compatible, making them stable (degeneration) or simply surviving it... Think it's clear that something about Gwen is special - not because we just plucked that of the air - but that perfect clone not only showed up really early - but it stayed around forever and pretty much stayed Gwen-ish the whole time (no crazy, minor degradation, fooled all her friends, etc). Are there any others like her around that time (aside from Ben)? Conway wrote her special - St. Gwen Even if she wasn't special - you couldn't get to the GC (that matches the corpse) without having her in the lab to capture and imprint her memories... And she's one of the few that don't get a little nutty If anything - the cloning at ESU is likely a constructed memory, just enough to go down that path for a patsy, without endangering the program. Cloning Peter so quickly would be possible based on what they learned from the twins... Etc. Don't think we need to get into more detail than she's special and helps advance things Failure rate would still be really high, even if they got one to work ... Think we said they can replace 2 of the lab warrens every few week, on an endless loop.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 11, 2016 18:52:01 GMT
After 121 - a perfect clone (Gwen) shows up from nowhere within 2 years, Peter (Ben) with his odd genes shows up shortly after and the clone army from Star Wars eventually shows up... Those suckers are getting cranked out pretty rapidly.. And eventually you get the wonder twins. So we simply need to explain why the leap in knowledge between 61 ( roughly the time the blank Gwen shows up. I think they knew that having her would do this - but it took GG to actually pull the trigger. By knowing a viable process - they could expand the number of experiments in different ways - beyond the simple sample. Why it would work ... Could be a million reasons or a combination of them - but once they have the process; they'd expand and refine it Memory transfer by it self seems simple enough that it pops up all the time.. But rarely is it successful (long term) to another person We have that one story (mentioned on research post) where Norman and Harry are in a supercomputer - but use advanced robots to interface with the RW. I think it's reasonable that the memory transfer issue is a physical issue... Either in making the bodies compatible, making them stable (degeneration) or simply surviving it... Think it's clear that something about Gwen is special - not because we just plucked that of the air - but that perfect clone not only showed up really early - but it stayed around forever and pretty much stayed Gwen-ish the whole time (no crazy, minor degradation, fooled all her friends, etc). Are there any others like her around that time (aside from Ben)? Ben and the original Gwen clone, were not the first attempts by Warren, according to later retcons. He first made Kaine and Abby-L. This can of course be retconned as part of Norman¡s plan to mess with Peter, i.e. allowing the Warren clone to retain some knowledge to succeed at cloning, while believing it was all done by himself; but that would be another story. How about?
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Post by vixx on Jul 11, 2016 20:11:17 GMT
After 121 - a perfect clone (Gwen) shows up from nowhere within 2 years, Peter (Ben) with his odd genes shows up shortly after and the clone army from Star Wars eventually shows up... Those suckers are getting cranked out pretty rapidly.. And eventually you get the wonder twins. So we simply need to explain why the leap in knowledge between 61 ( roughly the time the blank Gwen shows up. I think they knew that having her would do this - but it took GG to actually pull the trigger. By knowing a viable process - they could expand the number of experiments in different ways - beyond the simple sample. Why it would work ... Could be a million reasons or a combination of them - but once they have the process; they'd expand and refine it Memory transfer by it self seems simple enough that it pops up all the time.. But rarely is it successful (long term) to another person We have that one story (mentioned on research post) where Norman and Harry are in a supercomputer - but use advanced robots to interface with the RW. I think it's reasonable that the memory transfer issue is a physical issue... Either in making the bodies compatible, making them stable (degeneration) or simply surviving it... Think it's clear that something about Gwen is special - not because we just plucked that of the air - but that perfect clone not only showed up really early - but it stayed around forever and pretty much stayed Gwen-ish the whole time (no crazy, minor degradation, fooled all her friends, etc). Are there any others like her around that time (aside from Ben)? Ben and the original Gwen clone, were not the first attempts by Warren, according to later retcons. He first made Kaine and Abby-L. This can of course be retconned as part of Norman¡s plan to mess with Peter, i.e. allowing the Warren clone to retain some knowledge to succeed at cloning, while believing it was all done by himself; but that would be another story. How about? Really close - only difference really is Warren would state he'd need access to the donor eventually if there are ever to stop going in circles... Might even spitball ideas on how to get access via ESU or even bringing her on as an intern... Remember, he thinks this is legit and Norman is following the rules. Norman would land on meeting this requirement through kidnapping on his own Not sure you'd need much of a retcon - Norman wiped out all traces of himself on the project, dumped Warren in a tank and brought in Allison - who he has contact with later. He basically went out and didn't come back for a while... No one is left to notice, except Allison. Wouldn't be odd at all to keep unique experiments vs incinerating them ... It just becomes a question of when and where those happened. Abby could be from the ESU lab... As she only found out about the Gwen clone later. That crazy twisted thing may be why Norman sent the real one over later... To give him what he wants so he stops. Running off to MI for a quiet life is an ideal resolution really. Kaine and Ben are a bit easier... Because both are out of scope and could come into being as written, although the location could change. You figure, even if he's stationed at ESU, they'ed occasionally replace him along with the others - gaining his memories and putting a better version of him out in the world. Like upgrading an iPhone Actually - that would explain why he keeps popping up after they think he's dead. Lots of interesting stuff in the next 30 issues, especially if Warren clone is indeed getting crazy. My friend joked that maybe their animal testing was on Jackals, and that 70s costume was some off variation of the suits they wore in the lab for experiments ... Not my favorite, but she was pleased with herself ( they really do wear funky looking greenish black suits for some stuff)
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 11, 2016 21:07:09 GMT
Well, not completely legit, because he took the samples under a pretext.
Sound to me like Warren is catholic, he wants access to Gwen but doesn't want to know about the dirty work?
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Post by vixx on Jul 11, 2016 22:33:26 GMT
Well, not completely legit, because he took the samples under a pretext. Sound to me like Warren is catholic, he wants access to Gwen but doesn't want to know about the dirty work? Possobly - you have the pagentry ...but there is a lack of guilt .... I see him more as being quite literal and halfway into an explanation before he realizes you were kidding - and just thinking people are generally good, follow the rules and are like him - after all, if everyone is like him that makes it easy to focus on other matters... I picture some friends from SRI (Stanford research institute) , they just need to give him a creative passion to balance the science... Don't know about you, but the Gwen obsession seemed like a bolt on... Think he was supposed to be a Connors clone, without the super villain aspect ... Seems all the folks that encourage him to stay interested in science are dead or super villans... Figured osborn is into that cult on Game of thrones... Slowly hovering a bit behind Harry whispering "shame" into his ear for 30 years Don't know about you - but reading through this has made me realize how thin the supporting cast has gotten and how enjoyable they made those stories... Think we are as done and good as us mere mortals can hope to be ...
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Post by vixx on Jul 12, 2016 4:26:18 GMT
Wanted to add - that whole Joyce / virus gem ... I think they realized the Gwen clone is a bit too perfect when compared to the cloned they came up with for the clone saga and it's an attempt to walk it back by saying its a real person that had been altered - like protogoblin or the actress that portrayed aunt may...
Fine for a throwaway one off story- but a problem that introduced a lot of complexity when revisited... Enough that a sniper literally shot her in panel, and she was never mentioned again lol
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 12, 2016 7:01:58 GMT
I'll change those two lines to reflect my proposed wording.
How do you want to proceed with the rest? So far, I've only changed little things that don't affect the meaning (from my POV). Do you want me to stop if a find another disagreement, or just finish it and post it here?
There's not much left.
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Post by vixx on Jul 12, 2016 13:35:47 GMT
I'll change those two lines to reflect my proposed wording. How do you want to proceed with the rest? So far, I've only changed little things that don't affect the meaning (from my POV). Do you want me to stop if a find another disagreement, or just finish it and post it here? There's not much left. You are on point - keep going until you are happy with it
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