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Post by vixx on Jul 3, 2016 7:00:42 GMT
Agree Dav - Needs a lot more finesse..and a lot less detail IMO... Not my strong suit - but looking for oversights and holes - does it fit? Feels like something was missed; want to make sure the rough cut fits between the panels...as it's essentially a research project ....and there isn't a loose string that unravels the whole thing I'm pleased event gotten here... But it's still kind of meh Think oz pointing out the timeline misses fits - as that's the kind of thing that would lead someone to dig deeper and find something ... As is - even if it fits, and it's plausible it's lacking .. Oomph. It borders on sci fi - even if what we have to work with is crappy clones, body switching and omnipotent God like villains that are practically immortal
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 3, 2016 8:40:52 GMT
Considering the attention span of the people we are addressing, it might be worth just posting the changes and where they fit in to the story and let the readers go back and review for themselves. Going back and reading the whole story all over again and looking for the changes can get tedious and the readers might lose interest. It's great that there is enough interest by these readers to offer critiques, so let's try and make it as easy as possible for them to examine these updates. At the end when it's ready to submit THEN we present the entire story. You have a point. Maybe I'll just post there the bullet points, and link to this thread, so anyone really interested can come over and read the whole thing. I don't know, first I'll need to review the script, as it stands now, comparing with what we've written before. That will take some time, as the thread already has more than 20 pages! I appreciate your position, but IMHO it's worth spending a LITTLE more time adding a little polish to the story. It will sell better that way and harbour more support from others. If a reader thinks a story is just OK, they may not be as enthusiastic when it comes time for submission, but if the reader likes the story, then they will want to stand with us to urge Marvel to give it a chance. We need to present it so the fence-sitters will take a side. Fence-sitters aren't my worry. It's the people invested in shipping the Spider-marriage, who could derail the project. One thing I won't do, is reply to the myriad of short-sighted crap they're sure to pile, in order to bring down the whole thing. It's going to be tough.
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Post by vixx on Jul 3, 2016 15:40:06 GMT
I'd post as stand alone -
It's 20 pages but most of that isn't relevant , it's just notes and a lot didn't go anywhere..
As for the detractors .. Crazy talk ... Fans of fictional characters are the most accepting group of people on the Internet - always open to new ideas, even if they don't agree with them.... đł
I think you'd need a short intro of exactly what the objectives are to achieve - we had some ground rules, and if folks don't really buy into to them it's really not an outline for them.
For example - we are focused on if it could happen - and how; we aren't focused on the ramifications, why it shouldn't or what comes next - which is very important in my mind. Aside from specific points; we stop at around 122, weve really only strung together elements displayed at other points in the series and keeping the tone inline with the original era, and I don't believe we require removing anything in canon to be functional ... And it's not crazy Hail Mary type stuff - it's actually kind of boring lol ...There is just an alternative series of events that connect with what's seen on panel, like Sins
If the rough cuts line up - especially the details that pop up over the coarse of the series / extended universe, and the charector motivations... Can polish / refine with more help.
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Post by vixx on Jul 3, 2016 15:51:21 GMT
Pulled together the basic ground rules / key assumptions
TNGSD â Research Project:
Ground rules:
Using whatâs already been established
1. Can Gwen 616 be alive? If yes, how?
2. Can an alternative to events depicted in Sins exist?
Delivering her to present day, alive is in scope. What she has been up to, fallout of her being alive on other characters, and who Peter ultimately winds up with is out of scope.
Aside from the need for continuity and/or supporting details â we stop around TNGSD
Like Sins â we can interpret â but not remove â what exists in panel and string together a narrative together that uses real world examples to bolster the narrative. For example - Gwen not appearing pregnant in any panel, despite tight clothes and carrying twins, was explained away using examples in the news of teens hiding their pregnancies through term.
No single detail should be leveraged to support the entire narrative
Things, including complicated things, can happen off panel in ways that 1) change what is understood and 2) are real events. Just because it hasn't been shown to the reader, doesn't mean it never happened or couldn't be later discovered.
The narrative should be plausible and reasonable - even if you don't necessarily agree with it.
Bonus points: Canon matters. The goal is not to assassinate or wildly redefine characters but work within their known profiles. Unlike Sins - the goal is to treat the past with respect; regardless of personal feelings towards any specific character or element. Having said this, Sins acts as baseline for this kind of story telling - changes to existing story elements (ie Gwen knowing Peter is actually Spiderman, or the letter received by Peter from Gwen having an alternative meaning to what's been presented) are in bounds - provided they can be supported by existing source material without a massive reach.
Key assumptions:
⢠Gwen possesses unique genetics which allowed the clone project to exist. While this unique trait was isolated and introduced into other samples - The process is not perfect, but evolving. Gwen possesses abilities which can be superior to most clones:
o Normal decay
o Normal cognitive function
⢠Gwen is the prototype clone, achieving this feat was iterative, and breakthroughs in her development would be leveraged to improve subsequent cloning efforts.
⢠Her unique factors are valuable enough to other parties that they would do her harm â regardless of her involvement with Spiderman.
⢠The operation responsible for the original cloning, and the depth of their involvement, has not been fully exposed; and stands to gain considerably by her "death"
⢠A successful clone is comprised of two independent factors, combined.
o You can have a cloned body without a personality.
o Consciousness (or a facsimile) can exist outside a person â like in a computer.
o Combining these two elements is difficult, has limitations, and results vary.
⢠Producing the near perfect clone shown and accepted - by people that knew her well - without prolonged access to the original is impossible - even in comic books. This is exacerbated by the intent to deceive. ⢠Cloning Norman Osborn (post GG serum) would be incredibly difficult, and to date has not been accomplished. ⢠Norman Osborn (along with Oscorp, and itsâ vast resources) are deeply involved in the cloning efforts at the earliest phases.
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Post by vixx on Jul 3, 2016 18:21:38 GMT
Adding in some of my research notes - Example of Cloning existing at Oscorp (Alchemax) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemaxen.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-23Examples off an advanced cloning program existing at Oscorp at one point - not sure if the origins of that program have ever been revealed... but they had to start someplace. Can be influenced by the groundwork (techniques, patents, etc) that Norman laid here. Also shows they branched into genetics at some point. I literally know nothing of these books. Protogoblin comicvine.gamespot.com/proto-goblin/4005-13735/This is an early example that shows Osborn's lab processes, and a willingness to use people as guinea pigs to further his experiments. I'm not sure where in the ASM timeline this happens, except that it's early. - Demonstrates evolving process which utilizes Oscorp resources to further unethical research - the tests are done at arms length, and require the subject to be isolated - demonstrates his capacity and willingness to rollup his sleeves and become involved at a complicated level - while covering his tracks and masking involvement. He has the capacity to do more than delegate. - runs parallel to what can be done to Harry with memory modification - altering a fully formed human Additionally - I think it's a baseline motivation for cloning in general. To progress with human testing - willing or otherwise - you are always hamstrung by the time between trials, finding subjects, each subject being unique, etc. Cloning, while itself miraculous, reduces all this to how fast you can churn them out - and lessens exposure to outside factors. To Norman - progress is only limited to how fast you can spit out the bodies. He cares little for humans, can't imagine him caring about a clone grown in a lab - unless it was valuable. With each subject being identical, it takes nothing to reset the basics allowing you to focus only on the next problem to be solved - and - because these aren't people in any sort of system, there is little risk for a Captain Stacy snooping around. I think this experience, if early enough, would be on his mind when meeting/planning with Warren. Legacy of Evil spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_one_shots/legacyofevil.htmlLike Strom - Both Norman and Harry's consciousness has been transferred to a computer, with androids running around - not organic clones. Depending on the timeline this story - like Aunt May's kidnapping, - show it's incredibly difficult to 1) transfer consciousness into an organic host and 2) clone Norman... even in more modern times. Note - it appears possible to move past Strom and Winkler's work, but more difficult to clone bodies and integrate their personality without Warren. ( Note - Warren clones may not possess all of the originals skills and know how, especially if what was transferred to the lab systems was redacted or the automated "learning" system that monitors / replaces the clones weed out certain traits as undesirable) Note - Even in Ock's storyline - he transfers consciousness to a new host - but like ProtoGoblin - that host is a real person; and the results have issues. Only the original GSC is a success, with some of the other clones, coming pretty close (accelerated decay, anti social disorders, BS crazy, etc) Spiderman Timeline www.comicsbackissues.com/timeline-of-events-in-spider-man-comics-1963-2012/Norman Osborn timeline www.thegreengoblinshideout.com/norman-osborn-timelineself explanatory Fingerprints / Original Clone Saga notes (from last year) www.wisegeek.com/can-two-people-have-the-same-fingerprints.htmwww.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/07/fingerprints-form-can-regenerate/Lots of real world information is available on the subject, but I think two points exist here. One - the fingerprints match, a scientific impossibility - previously discussed. I chalk this up to if you can grow a clone and program it with memories, you can likely copy their fingerprints exactly through the cloning process. Secondary - there is mention that there are subtle differences between the Gwen that was exhumed , and the Gwen Clone(s) walking around. I think this is where the two step process comes into play. First - the purpose of the first experiment is to replicate the body - without regard to personality, thoughts, memories, etc. For all purposes it's an empty vessel - which by design - perfectly mimics the real thing. When dealing with personality- Stromm was able to replicate himself into a robot, and while it's been a while - I believe - like with the body - it's a near perfect copy of the original. That's the purpose of the experiment. The consistent trouble has been combining the two - and there are numerous examples of being able to successfully do one without the other. To pull off the Gwen Clone - alterations would have to be made on both ends to make them compatible with each other and achieve the new desired objective. These changes would be apparent at a building block level - but would be willing tradeoffs for a successful work around. Ie. It looks like a person, it acts like a person - and it's say 99% identical at even the most basic level that person. If variations had to exist to have any measure of success - they would do it. Workarounds and comprimises happen everyday, and honestly - it's no different than how genetic therapy works in the real world: Here is a tomato. In every way imaginable it's a tomato - however to make it resilient, to make t do x, Y and Z; we spliced in genes from A, B and C and altered the original strain to be accepting of those changes. To 99.9% of the world - it's still a tomato. It becomes a question of how much change is acceptable, and what can be changed while still be considered a tomato. I can't make it look like a cucumber... it still has to be red... it can't taste like a banana... I can't use 80% of a pineapple, etc. Lastly - if my goal is a one and done, I may be very particular with where I draw the finish line and obsess over the tiniest of details... as with lots of iterative approaches, it's normal to stand up the best working version that you can; then refine out the discrepancies over time as technology, process and knowledge improve. For Gwen - to produce that original clone that fooled everyone; you'd have to have access to the original. For two reasons: 1) the hypnosis method is complete and utter BS and 2) and even if it wasn't - these folks did not have her entire life's history to act as a testing plan. They would have to have a source to compare it to - otherwise; this elaborate plan would unravel the first time the clone messed up a key memory they didn't know was false. Without it - they wouldn't know if what was recovered was accurate going back. Even if they got lucky and Gwen was magically correct; they'd have no baseline to compare other clones (like Warren) to. I don't buy that they'd crank these things out in a lab, recover memories and simply trust they are accurate. You do more when transferring data between harddrives. They likely made and disposed of dozens of every versions determining what worked, how to fix problems, and how those results stack up with other, different samples. LSS: Unless it's some alien technology, or a genie granting wishes (magic) - You could not produce the original Gwen Clone without prolonged access to the original Gwen Stacy, even in comic books.. but especially in comic books rooted in the real world, and using the processes described over the years. Frankly - The existence of such a perfect result pretty much proves the original was alive and involved; and the fact she winds up dead, shortly before the clone shows up and at the hands of someone later shown to be involved with the project (end of clone sage 2?) is very convenient. <//end paste\\> Gwen's letter to Peter ddata.over-blog.com/xxxyyy/0/18/86/30/asm-509-p08.jpg Full letter pic - Notes - the letter is not explicit in what she is referencing, there is no verifiable way (yet shared) to determine when it was written, where it's been, and may show timeline errors (Gwen being in two places at once). The strongest link to authenticity is MJ; who is a single source and may or may not have been compromised at some point. To date - no artifact from Gwen's belongings, no other friends or family have come forward with concrete proof (hospital records?) that events transpired as described. In an immediate circle filled with clones, creepy stalker professors, marriage buying devils, disappearing babies, clones, immortal goblins, superheros and villans, insane baby daddies, dead fathers, and more ... it's open to speculation - given how much time has passed. (reasonable) Technology that has been proven to exist in SM/MU Super labs (public/private) Advanced Cloning Memory Transfer Stasis Chambers Secret Elaborate Lairs in Urban Areas Oscorp (as a conglomerate with massive resources; not a regional chemical company) Portable memory machine Genetic Research / Processes Norman's Journals www.thegreengoblinshideout.com/harry-osborn-green-goblin-iiCovered in the mid 200's - Harry finds a list in a roll top desk that contains what he believes is a master list of Goblin Lairs, later confirmed that all have been visited by the Hobgoblin. Given what we typically see at your average lair - a storehouse for weapons, hideout, etc. basically a ratty hovel; it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't find a state of the art lab that was more Norman than Goblin listed here... a common element they may share is being secret; but I think it would be connected to and hidden through Oscorp - which has massive holdings. Also - You'd figure that Norman's holding would be gone over with a fine tooth comb at the time of his "death". Or...it may not being in anyone's name directly - it could be a foundation, a red shirt, Warren, etc. - basically anything that allows for the bills to be paid and the site secure and isolated. Under a protected site - like historical or community building (ie Hospital - possibly the one that restored Norman after the G formula exploded) or at Oscorp would make sense (note: there is a 50+ year old non profit hospital ~9 miles from the Brooklyn Bridge) - depending on if the discovery of the place can connect to Norman or not.. or being someplace so out of the way (but within flying distance of Gwen's apartment) no one cares. Really, the only thing that could threaten exposure if it's flying under the radar is a crime, poorly masking the bills (like when they bust grow farms for having 10x the electrical bill of things in the neighborhood) a disaster or a legal fight (ie Emminent Domain).. and if it's hidden well enough, it would be easy to overlook. It could be under a Starbucks in downtown Manhattan Actual cloning efforts - www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0193005.htmlIt is impossible to clone a dead person, or make an exact copy of a human being; cloning a body is possible - but memories experiences etc - like in the comics is possible. All have required access to a living original Joyce Delaney / Abby l Are these cannon? Need to establish a cronology - created with different processes - Joyce follows protogoblin ( if accurate) and Abby proves interitive processes, and represents first successful integrated clone. Not sure when both were created, or if they were retconned. Gwen timeline w/ pics haveageekasm.com/comics/gwen-stacy-dead-alive-decide/
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Post by vixx on Jul 4, 2016 18:41:44 GMT
Last Edit: 7/5 - content, incorporating feedback.
⢠Sometime after the accident in his lab, Norman and Warren start an advanced cloning program - using Oscorp resources. ⢠Warren, a teacher, genius, and man of science leads the project, aimed at solving problems he sees in the world (organ transplants, genetic defects, etc.) ⢠Norman, sees cloning (and duplication) as a path to personal perfection and securing his legacy - as a visionary that lead Oscorp to new heights, as a method to exert control at the institution, and privately - as having the potential to return a version of his wife for Harry. ⢠Initial planning, based on theory, determines clones will have two independent components â an organic body and consciousness transfer â that must be successfully combined. ⢠After a promising start, the initial phase (using Osborn, Warren, Winkler) does not go well - samples do not form and/or decay rapidly. ⢠They set new test subject parameters, and Warren collects DNA samples from several students as part of an extra credit assignment. ⢠Like many students, Gwen Stacy - a bright student that helps run the student lab, submits a sample. Peter Parker does not (these aren't the cell samples, we saw Serba collecting, in the flashback from ASM #148). â˘Â Like with the previous attempts, the new round of testing fails in much the same fashion - except for one sample; which turns out to be Gwen's. Warren has a theory for this. ⢠An excited Warren shares the positive results with Norman, and they detail out the technologies and processes the program will be run under. ⢠Norman secretly identifies, then researches Gwen to learn all about her (he'd want to make sure she's worthy, she's going to be spliced with his DNA, after all). While he loathes the idea of using "external" DNA, he is willing to make concessions based on previous conversations with Warren around the viability of his sample. ⢠They will need: The ability to create bodies, the ability to transfer consciousness to these bodies, and a way to store them long term w/ minimal decay. ⢠One team will focus on the bodies - lead by Warren. Another will focus on the mental duplication process and host transfer - led by Winkler. ⢠Winkler is aware of Stromm's research for duplicating his consciousness into a computer, and will use that profile as a baseline for integration with an organic host. ⢠Modification of consciousness (memories, personality.) is included as part of the process. ⢠Based on the initial findings - there will be three phases: a. Phase 1: Building on the initial success with Gwen's sample - Warren will successfully grow a clone body, devoid of personality,  from the successful âGwenâ sample. b. Phase 2: Through reverse engineering of Phase 1 - isolate the "unique" Gwen traits (<1% of the sample used)  and splice them into a new sample that previously failed to create a successful clone. Warren becomes the obvious choice, as Winkler, like Norman, showed poor results in the trials. Additionally - this clone will be used in the memory replication phases, which requires prolonged access to the original source. c. Overcome Norman's unique issues through creation of a hybrid strain of Gwen/Norman DNA. Norman has proven impossible to clone due to his âaccidentâ - so a considerable amount of external DNA (~50%) must be utilized to be successful. Using Gwen's sample, which has performed the best, is the obvious choice. â˘Â A Phase 4 is also discussed, but not planned - the creation of a Norman clone that requires little "external" DNA; attempted once the previous three phases are complete, and other limitations are understood. The plans is to learn from the hybrids, then replace Gwen's DNA with "pre-accident" Norman sample at a level inline with Phase 2. ⢠Phase One progresses quickly through animal testing, and after repeated attempts - culminates in a perfect replica body being created. It shows no signs of the disintegration encountered on the others, and is kept in a stasis tank to be studied. ⢠Warren finds this specimen remarkable, and references it often - in meetings, discussions, etc. ⢠While Phase Two is running concurrently, and significant progress has been made -  the pace is hampered by samples which are considerably harder to work with, and more prone to produce random anomalies. ⢠Phase Three is proving more difficult still, as Osborn's DNA is difficult to work with, requiring more and more external DNA and alterations to achieve the same progress. ⢠Discussions with Norman have provided some answers which aided in progress, but not to Warren's satisfaction. They have argued over how much "external" DNA will be required to create stable hybrids. ⢠The mind team has initially progressed quickly, adapting Stromm's work and building a working prototype of the memory control device which will duplicate, then transfer, consciousness from a computer to the clone bodies. ⢠The device is small, portable and at Norman's request, includes the ability to modify memory. ⢠Integration of body and consciousness proves to be difficult, unpredictable work. Many samples show signs of mental decay or differences in core personality not present in the originals. While memory modifications help with some of these issues, that method is not considered a permanent solution. ⢠Prior to his death, Winkler duplicates Warrenâs consciousness to a computer, for use with integration experiments. His profile is studied and modified as needed. ⢠Unlike the Gwen clone, Warren has direct access to both the original organic sample AND original memory profiles â making the Warren clone (Phase 2) the primary focus for the integration phase. ⢠Citing espionage and security fears, Norman has had all reference to the project specifics removed from the lab, the experiments and Oscorp records. ⢠Winklerâs betrayal and death happen suddenly; which greatly impacts progress on combining the physical and mental components of the clones successfully. ⢠Citing rising expenditures and "The Winkler Incident", an internal review is quietly began at Oscorp. At this time - no known connection to Osborn is suspected or known. ⢠Norman panics, and begins zapping key personnel to ensure loyalty and remove details, putting distance between the project and Norman's involvement. ⢠Around this time a pair of Gwen/Norman clone bodies are completed, and monitored. To ensure maximum benefit - they are redundant and different gender, to ensure all potential variables are accounted for. ⢠The first successful Phase Two clone (Warren) â complete with memory - is completed. ⢠The physical decay process is much improved, now only happening after death. The mental duplication appears stable, but there are still concern around decay. ⢠A meeting between Warren and Norman goes very badly. Tensions have been escalating, with Norman quick to anger. ⢠They argue bitterly over Winkler's earlier conclusions around the mental limitations, the moral impacts - and Warren continues to grill Norman on his sample. ⢠Warren is confident stable memory can be obtained through a different process if other requirements that contribute to degradation are removed â like memory modification. ⢠Warren and Winkler previously identified that the memory transfer would disintegrate in line with the physical organic degradation â potentially leading to serious mental issues. ⢠Warren further hypothesized that the Gwen sample could be a blueprint for overcoming this deficiency - but cautions that even with time and Oscorp resources, the large amounts of DNA and direct, prolonged access to the donor would make pursuing it immoral and prohibitive. ⢠Winkler had agreed with Warren's assessment, but did not the conclusion. He believed the moral implications were marginal when compared to the potential benefits; likening the whole process to animal testing. ⢠Citing the Warren clone, and deeming the project successful, Osborn disbands the remaining experiments - choosing to focus on the mental decay issue. ⢠A new character (Alison Mongrain? Joyce?) will monitor lab, including the hybrid clones. ⢠Norman subdues Warren; using the memory modification machine (ASM #66) to remove his memories of the projects. ⢠Norman releases Warrenâs clone from stasis, and after modifying itsâ memories, releases it to pick up Warrenâs life. ⢠Later â the Warren clone suffers some mental decay, as suggested, and recovers some trace of memories Norman had sought to remove. He starts to fixate Gwen â his âperfect specimenâ, and research cloning. ⢠Warren is sealed in a stasis chamber - too important to kill, too moral to continue and too dangerous to release. ⢠With the team dispersed - the new female character creates several Warren clones to staff the lab. ⢠They are loaded with the modified consciousness from the existing template.  The lab systems automatically monitor, and replace him - with updates gained from the data it reads. ⢠These clones continue to work towards solving the memory transfer and degradation problem. ⢠Later â Harryâs recreational drug use is discovered by Norman. ⢠Further problems begin to develop at Oscorp (a public company) which cast doubt on Norman's leadership - the cloning project (while hidden as other projects) is devouring resources, yet no commercially exploitable results (ie Patents) have been discovered. ⢠As the clones have developed, Norman has been withdrawing from Harry. ⢠Earlier testing had identified Harry (and others, such as Winkler) as a bad candidate for cloning, disqualifying him - like many others - due to genetic predispositions. Normanâs hope was Harry would eventually qualify â but believes drug use, specifically a mind altering substance like LSD - have made that impossible. ⢠In an attempt to âfixâ the perceived problems caused by Harryâs drug problem, Norman uses the memory modifier on Harry. Harry responds poorly, winding up in the hospital â but ultimately recovering unchanged for the experience. His friends, whose only experience with drugs comes from watching Trainspotting...believe that coming down from a LSD trip is akin to kicking a heroin habit, and accept his reactions as normal. ⢠Norman is disgusted about the drugs, writing Harry off as weak minded and an unworthy heir who lets small things - like getting dumped by a common party girl - rattle his confidence enough to seek escape in substance abuse ( he probally draws this conclusion while drinking scotch, smoking a cigar and mainlining Goblin Serum...) He has also backs away from the idea of eventually cloning his wife, instead focusing more attention on the twins potential - both as heirs and speeding up his own cloneâs development. ⢠Growing more paranoid, he has the twin clones sent to a new facility in Europe. ⢠Cracking under the pressure of problems at Oscorp, the slow pace of progress with the clones, and his growing disappointment and resentment of Harry â Norman attempts to rewrite Harry in his image. ⢠Harry is programed him with massive amounts of "improvements" and instructions ⢠Harry responds to the reprogramming abysmally - a  combination of being overloaded by the massive amount of data, drugs weakening his system, and his genetic predisposition. ⢠A drug relapse story is given, Harry is kept home to - against his Dr's advice - and suffers permanent changes to his personality as a result. ⢠His legacy in jeopardy - Norman becomes unhinged, and the events in TNGSD occur. ⢠After kidnapping Gwen, Norman returns with her to the lab. Based on previous conversations with Warren and Winkler, he becomes convinced her involvement will jumpstart the lagging clone program, which, once fixed, would solve his problems at Oscorp. ⢠With help from the Warren clones, she is put into stasis â Warrenâs original âblankâ clone removed to take her (brief) place in the world. ⢠Norman picks a fight with Spiderman, where Gwen is âkilledâ, as planned ⢠Norman dies unexpectedly in the fight, later recovering and leaving for Europe. ⢠Gwen remains in stasis, at the lab, as part of the ongoing cloning efforts. ⢠Her involuntary involvement leads to the breakthroughs seen in later story arcs, and many of these breakthoughs contribute to Oscorp's renewed success - helping cement Norman's legacy as a great corporate leader.
This outline follows the ground rules, is researched and I think fairly comprehensive.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 4, 2016 18:49:18 GMT
Hey Phil, I can't keep up
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Post by vixx on Jul 4, 2016 19:34:46 GMT
Hey Phil, I can't keep up No worries - just dumping out everything I've gathered, get it out there
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 4, 2016 19:47:33 GMT
Okay, I'll try not to get buried and take a look at the final (let's hope) script, tomorrow.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 5, 2016 6:33:09 GMT
Before ASM #31 After the death of his wife, Norman struggles to be a good father to Harry, but excels at running Oscorp. This outlet not only acts as an escape from the personal life he knows is failing â but fuels the personality traits (i.e. delusions of grandeur, aggressiveness) which lead him to believe he, personally, is immune from failure and he can practically will something into creation simply by being involved. This mindset, not only puts him on the path towards attempting things most would consider impossible â but provides an âend justifying the meansâ method of execution. How is not important, or really not too far of a reach; but after meeting Warren, the two set down a path of genetic research that cumulates with a viable method for cloning humans. Warren, a teacher, genius, and man of "pure science" leads the project, aimed at solving problems he sees in the world (organ transplants, genetic defects, etc.) While he has his pride â his motives are pure. Norman, has two goals (much like he has two sides to his personality) - First - power, money, glory â for himself, his legacy and for Oscorp. He envisions a perfect Norman clone- thinking it would be excellent publicity. However, secretly - he wonders if it's a way to bring back his wife - for him, for Harry. Norman wants to be a good dad... he just fails, at every turn; and he doesnât âdoâ small gestures. They form a plan, assemble a team (including Winkler) using Oscorp resources and contacts, and bulk out Warrens theories into testable experiments. A key to Warrenâs theory of cloning success exists in separate parts that must be blended together. The first potion is transferring consciousness from an organic host â the memories, experiences and personality traits that make us who we are â into a stable medium that can be imprinted accurately to a new host, on demand. That host may be organic or not â but would need to work much in the way one can replicate a computer file. The second is successful, physical replication of the host â with small enhancements to repair or improve upon defects at a genetic level and allow for the combination of the two. Warren envisions these blank copies as a way to solve problems â such genetic defects and shortages of organ transplants â without the ethical dilemmas plaguing modern genetic research. To him â creating an organic body is no different than making GMO food. Building on Stromm's earlier work, the best example of duplicating consciousness available â with notes readily accessible through Oscorp involvement â falls to a team lead by Winkler. Warren heads up the team tasked with replicating the hosts. The teams will work closely together to ensure the part can, ultimately, be combined successfully. While the theoretical phases show promise, progression to an exploratory human testing phase (includes Osborn, Warren samples - and others) does not go well. Unlike early successes with lab experiments, computer simulations and the animal testing rounds - the samples either do not form correctly and/or decay rapidly. Being thorough and going by chunks, a couple of suggested corrections and a potential "bug". That bolded phrase doesn't make clear sense, and given Stromm's known expertise, the wording may be conductive to misinterpretation. I would change "cloning" with "duplicating", which is the term used on Macs for file replication. Also, what happened with my suggestion?: Whatever happened with "Norman, sees cloning as a path to perfection and immortality"? We went from that to "He wants to clone himself - thinking it would be excellent publicity" to "He envisions a perfect Norman clone- thinking it would be excellent publicity". There's no personal desire in that last phrasing.
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Post by vixx on Jul 5, 2016 13:27:31 GMT
Combing lots of posts, likely just missed it can add it Wasn't sure if immortal was still his thing, after they basically made him immortal... For Warren - was it Amnesia or or effects from an aggressive memory wipe on the clone? Warrens on ice someplace in asm 60s, no way to tell what he remembers or acts until he wakes up. The clone may not remember everything, but that could be just a side effect of the clone process, the memory machine, or a bad conclusion it draws from not having all the facts and making choices with a slowly dissolving brain - like his obsession with Gwen being chalked up to obsessive love; when in reality it's the wiped "perfect specimen" feelings poking through and being read wrong. I think mental decay in clones can be caused by a couple of things - but leads them to draw conclusions like a mental patient...in crazy out there ( spiderman in the 90s) kind of ways. Ie my family can't have just left on their own and not called - some conspiracy must have killed them and covered it up. I think it's import to have this defined , to be used as a tool to surgically peel off some of the crazy logic and reasons that make it so hard to update. Real Warren may wake up and find his family is very much indeed alive...and even reconcile. Wish they would... Norman's a bit out there these days Word choice makes sense - duplication vs cloning. Memory is duplicated, bodies are cloned A lot has already been decided prior to this summary - feel free to change anything that strays - no intent to change anything , just clean/tighten it up Also - there are really two paths for motivation - there's what he gains privately and publicly. Having a Norman clone running around *would* be great for Oscorp, I do think he'd benefit personally but want to leverage a lot of the work for more financial gains - ie transplants, gene therapy, and such; all patentable. Forbes estimated Oscorp doing 3.1B a year in rev - that's pretty good; but not exactly a top conglomerate - and this kind of program would really tax those resources - that's small enough to be easily acquired if they don't show growth. Whatever reasons he has, he's got to have at least one that aligns with Warren - or they'd likely struggle to ever get started. Lastly - think legacy is important, but even with Harry being a disappointment and him looking for alternatives - he'd view Oscorp as his biggest one - he saved it after his dad blew it and it's the source of all his power ; without it - he's just a crazy rich guy. Think this whole cloning objective and his losing his mind really threatened that - culminating in the stock dip in 121. If he blows it he's no better than his dad Also - I think immortality has a different meaning for him, he lives a public life. A public clone would let him run things indefinitely with a good cover story, he'd be most interested in memory duplication. He's ... About 45? Unless he's like the guy that owns Viacom / cbs and holds most of the stock... He's got about 15 years before he has to turn it over... So either he needs puppet or a way to be himself without looking like himself. Doubt he'd trust someone else to run it unless he absolutely had to.. Think that's part of why he's so freaking hard on Harry - and eventually tries to rewrite him. He can't be 70, still looking 45 and running Oscorp without an incredible reason or series of events... And even with all that hanging over his head; I don't think he'd kill Harry and replace him with a Harry clone programmed with Norman's consciousness. When he dies - someone is running it for Harry, but still answering to Euro Norman.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 5, 2016 19:19:10 GMT
Real Warren may wake up and find his family is very much indeed alive...and even reconcile. Wish they would... This is a potential thorn, I really don't know what happened with his family, because I didn't read the issues involved. How could we find out? As for the immortality bit, I guess it makes more sense for him as a businessman, at the beginning, to look after his company's interests. I'll just apply the minor corrections to the final script, pending what we might clarify about Warren's past.
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Post by vixx on Jul 5, 2016 20:18:43 GMT
Real Warren may wake up and find his family is very much indeed alive...and even reconcile. Wish they would... This is a potential thorn, I really don't know what happened with his family, because I didn't read the issues involved. How could we find out? As for the immortality bit, I guess it makes more sense for him as a businessman, at the beginning, to look after his company's interests. I'll just apply the minor corrections to the final script, pending what we might clarify about Warren's past. I remember reading it, and it was kind of muddled after a few retcons... Basically - he lost his wife because he spent all the time in the lab.. not sure when, but they were killed by some shadowy , Dr. Moreau type force because of Warren's involvement with some cloning thing, or stealing information from them, or something B movie ish... From the wiki page It was revealed that Miles had previously been an assistant of the High Evolutionary at Wundagore Mountain after he earned his Ph.D in biochemistry. Warren had assisted the High Evolutionary in experiments that involved turning animals into humans and vice versa. There was conflict between Warren and the Evolutionary because Warren had succeeded "New Men" who looked practically human, whereas the Evolutionary was not able to. Eventually Warren had evolved a jackal that exhibited a Jekyll-Hyde personality. When the test subject escaped, the Evolutionary had banished Warren from Wundagore. Warren continued his research and eventually settled down with a woman named Monica who bore him two small children, who were all killed in what was originally believed to be a car crash; however, later revealed to be the result of an assault by his highly evolved Man-Jackal, envious of his creator Not sure if this clone is the one that went all "Alka Seltzer" off the bridge... if that matters Someone else can figure it out - but personally, I think restoring him to the silver age pre scumbag would , like sins, entail finding a way of stripping away the over the top, wily E coyote story elements that always seem to end in a simple statement of weak human nature (she was drawn to him, the man beast thing was jealous, Harry's drug use was caused by daddy issues ( maybe with that last cliche - Harry should wind up pole dancing in clear heels, wearing a Goblin costume? would the comic code allow that? ...kidding ...) ... Instead - choose a normal path simple guy doing simple guy things - like working to much, having family issues and working It out. One thing we've lost over the years is simple charectors having relatable problems... everything that happens to even a minor character has to be epic... and unfortunately - it's been a long time sense I've managed to get invested or care about characters they have tried to introduce or change. The bonus is- with him bobbing around in a clone tank around ASM 6x - and the clone zapped and later going mental ... it could go either way; there is a lot of reasonable doubt. For this arc, it's out of scope... we just need to deliver him to 122 Also - I'm incorporating recommendations into the outline, not the narrative yet ... for whatever reason the site doesn't like it when I try and interact with the long post .. will capture it in word once we are through it.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 6, 2016 5:36:09 GMT
I seem to remember that was the same place I got my info from, or some very similar, but the problem is, you can sometimes tell that info is incomplete. As you point out, the problem could be ulterior retcons.
Probably the most practical approach, will be to insinuate some kind of mental problems, associated with memory "probing" and overwriting. Dreams in the tube could also leak and imprint themselves, as memories. We'll polish it once I get to that part.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 6, 2016 15:51:53 GMT
Before ASM # 61 Under pressure from Norman - Warren expands the testing - looking for more data to explain the results. He enlists students to collect DNA samples from students as part of an extra credit assignment; figuring that while he canât broadcast what heâs up to - College is a very diverse environment and students, properly motivated, arenât going to ask too many questions. Like many students, Gwen Stacy, a bright student that helps run the student lab, submits her profile along with the others she collects. Peter Parker does not (Note: these aren't the cell samples, we saw Serba collecting, in the flashback from ASM #148). Despite a large, diverse sample size - the new round of testing routinely fails - except for one sample (Gwen). Warren has a theory that this sample has a unique genetic makeup - which allows her DNA to survive the rigorous process that causes the others to fail. This genetic anomaly is quite rare but doesnât manifest in a meaningful way outside his lab (not X-gene related). For all purposes, itâs from a normal person with a remarkable genetic trait (similar to say â Typhoid Mary, or smokers who never develop cancer). Heâs confident he can extract this, over time, and incorporate it into other samples.Warren shares the results with Norman, and they detail out the technologies and processes the program will be run under - based on the âGwen assumptionâ being correct.Despite Warrenâs objections, Norman immediately digs into the study, identifies the donor and researches Gwen - building a full profile and dropping it on a shocked Warren at a staff meeting. Heâs surprised to learn Norman has gone the extra mile.They argue - for Warren; she is irrelevant. (What are you going to do? Grab her off the street and force her to be a guinea pig? ) For Norman - he wants to know everything about the girl that the whole program, his reputation and billions of research dollars hang on. Warren backs down and they put together a detailed plan to move forward. In addition to the teams identified earlier, they will need a state of the art facility to house their work and a way to store the experiments long term w/ minimal decay.Beyond whatâs in the Oscorp records, Winkler is aware of Stromm's research about transferring his consciousness to a computer, and will use that as a base for his work. At Normanâs request, he will include memory and personality modification â citing the need for safety (but downplaying control â simply a method for keeping what they are doing secret). Warren, less interested in this part of the project, doesnât agree but complies.After the initial trials â which focus on working up to a complex organism; there will be three phases: 1) grow a clone from the successful sample (Gwen) . 2) isolate the âuniqueâ Gwen trait, then use it to create a clone from an unsuccessful sample. (Warren)and 3) At Normanâs request - create a hybrid strain of Gwen/Norman DNA to produce a couple of viable Norman based clones. One male (more Norman DNA) and one female (more Gwen DNA); which also ensures they account for differences in gender. For reasons unknown to Warren, Normanâs sample does not react like any on record â including Harryâs. (Norman/Gwen)
Note: Norman provided a plausible cover story for why his blood is all screwed up. Industrial accident exposed him and left him irradiated. While Warren is skeptical â he accepts it at face value.
Once these stages are complete - a fourth stage will be a pure Norman clone - attempted only after the first 3 are successful, and the limitations in organic replication have been overcome. (As evidenced in Aunt Mayâs kidnapping or the âTwinsâ escaping and going a bit bonkers â the process for producing non-Gwen clones isnât advanced enough to do this)Phase one progresses quickly, and after repeated attempts - culminates in a perfect âblankâ Gwen being created. It shows no signs of the disintegration encountered on earlier attempts - and remains intact to be studied. Phase two is running almost concurrently, and significant progress has been made. Phase three is proving more difficult, as Osborn's DNA is different. Discussions with Norman have provided some answers, but not to Warren's satisfaction and they have argued over how much "external" DNA will be required to create stable hybrids. The mind team has initially progressed quickly, adapting Stromm's work and building a working prototype of the memory control device which will transfer consciousness from a computer to the clone. It can work independently of an organic source. But integration with the bodies proves difficult, it's slow work. Around this time a pair of 50/50 hybrid clones are completed, and monitored. Having limited test subjects, Warren often used himself as a case study â once certain safety thresholds were met. Prior to Winkler dying, he helped Warren transfer his consciousness to a computer, for use with his clones and integration progress and testing. His profile is studied and modified as needed â and is the only fully operational clone they can hope to make at the time (as they only have Warrenâs consciousness loaded for transfer) [Moved here]: His profile is setup in every system in the lab, and he realises without a family, and being at the lab every day - heâs the obvious choice.As a security precaution, all reference to certain aspects of the program, including Normanâs involvement, are removed from the computer profile. Norman is concerned about espionage, but has been a bit more paranoid as of late. The first integrated clone (Warren) is finishing up. While the physical decay process isnât as good as the Gwen clones; itâs much improved. (Happening after death). The mental instability and eventual decay is still a significant issue, but shown signs of improvement with enormous effort â including utilising Winklerâs memory manipulation techniques. Norman, Winkler and Warren are meeting regularly - and have many plans and theories on how to overcome project limitations. One topic they seem to avoid - is how more and more âGwenâ DNA is going to be needed in the future. More than can be grown in a lab. Warren, supported by Winkler, states they just need time to figure it out - like they already did with the bodies. They identified that the memory transfer would deteriorate (similar to the physical disintegration). Warren further hypothesised that the Gwen sample could be the blueprint to overcoming this deficiency - but the amount of time, resources and access to large amounts of DNA would make pursuing it immoral and prohibitive. Winkler agreed on the premise, but not the moral issue. Norman will come to not give a f--k about one person standing in his way - heâs ruthless by even his own standards. Warren pushes to use himself as the sample - as heâs successfully cloned himself and implanted that clone with some memories. So many changes this time, if you have a doubt or objection about a particular edit, specify and I'll elaborate. About the three consecutive paragraphs marked for deletion, don't seem to play a necessary role, and this is getting longer than desired: the fight doesn't move the story forward, the additional facility seems superfluous and Stromm's work had already been mentioned. About the text in bigger font. Why is Warren surprised? She's just one of a limited sample. I don't even see a good reason why he shouldn't have the vials properly labeled. The twins have already escaped?
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