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Post by vixx on Jul 6, 2016 18:16:52 GMT
I agree they can be trimmed back - they more exist to walk through reasoning if challenged.
In order -
The first exists to show growing friction and the different morals that guide the the primary characters. Norman is changing from the guy that helped plan things and tackling this huge breakthrough to someone with a shorter, irrational temper. Warren's constant moral undertone is grating - and this is Warren's first exposure to Norman's ruthless nature. Warren would not care who the sample is from, and it's coded to avoid bias - focusing instead on isolating it's unique properties and incorporating into the others so they wouldn't fail. Norman on the other hand is thinking about himself - and wants to know everything about her - as she's going to be spliced into his DNA to produce the twins. Dropping a complete profile on Warren, and still not seeing her as a person, would really open his eyes on who he's working with. I think it's important to demonstrate Warren knows Norman hasn't been truthful about why his samples are so borked. Things escalate with them about 3 times - with the last being put on ice for 40 years...that cant happen out of the blue; and Warren's line in the sand would be overcoming the need for access to more DNA than can be grown in a lab. He'd volenteer himself - but doesn't possess that special trait. This is later in the script.
Second paragraph is redundant. Think we've made it crystal clear it's state of the art and long term storage to fight normal decay is needed.
Dense - but really is just explaining how memory modification / personality altering came to be. Doubtful two scientists would include this as a fully developed requirement with everything else going on - without someone else making it a requirement. Called it out because the functionality is critical. Later, Warren wants to remove these features becasue he feels they are affecting the duplication process and contributing decay. His "other methods" mention later is a nod to hypnosis or that another method may exist (in one of the other billion comics written over the years)
Phase 2 clone has to be Warren. The timelines need a completed clone to sent to ESU, and if Winkler is dead and Norman (or Winkler) can't be cloned - only Warren can provide both a physical sample and act as the duplication candidate. One thing I want to make clear is it's hard and slow to make Gwen level clones - and that the ones that come out of this project represent the best they could reasonably achieve without kidnapping Gwen. Once they have her - they have a lot more options.
Can drop the details on the twins. They made 2, one girl, one boy to cover any chance at anamoly casued by gender. 2 is 1, 1 is none.
I think Warren is surprised because it's so far outside the normal bell curve. If you had 10 samples.. 6 might be DOA (Norman and Winkler), 2 might show something minor than fail, one might be marginally better (this is Warren)... but then there is Gwen's. It's not without flaws .. but it's so far ahead of the others, like it would take months of interitive revision to even approach this, that once you eliminate the chance you made a mistake - you'd have to focus your efforts and figure out why.
The twin bodies form last - and are shipped to Europe before they have memories (around 66?) - three reasons -
one - they don't have someone elses memories, their memories were created.. and I think what happened to Harry would be a needed step in being able to do this
two - they appeared so much later that I really don't care HOW they got their memories lol
three - there are lots of examples of memories being manipulated, transferred between bodies, backed up on computer, etc - so it's clear that technology can progress without Winkler and Stromm's involvement ... Archamax(sp?) has a genetic division, they can figure it out.... but creating a stable, perfect clone body is Warren's calling card, lot less examples of that being done - and being able to do it with Norman's GG DNA is next to impossible (which is why they used so much of Gwen's DNA (50%) to stabilize - and this could be done with pretty much any process that explains why they show up in tests as her kids). This unique talent is a big part of why he's still alive. Without Warren - it should be very clear that these two are it. There isn't an assembly line someplace cranking out Osborn and Twin clones by the dozen (like X-23).
Most notes in Parenthesis can be removed - they are more notes to aid in the read through.
Other thing - is I think physical decay is a slower thing ...not just the goo pile one sees at death... with mental decay casued by 1) you figure duplication, especially in the early stories, is going to have problems of all kinds... but even if it was perfect, it wouldn't stay that way because the brain would be physically decaying and causing issues (except Gwen). Toss in the nueralizer, and think it helps bring some of the crazy, over the top elements back to earth - which makes them easier to explain after being tinkered with for so long. Plus - you can't have armies of perfect clones... this isn't Star Wars.... if you did why would Norman ever come out of his rabbit hole when he could just throw an army of perfected Goblin/Normans at New York once, wipe everyone out and clean up the mess?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 6, 2016 19:58:57 GMT
Phase 2 clone has to be Warren. The timelines need a completed clone to sent to ESU, and if Winkler is dead and Norman (or Winkler) can't be cloned - only Warren can provide both a physical sample and act as the duplication candidate. One thing I want to make clear is it's hard and slow to make Gwen level clones - and that the ones that come out of this project represent the best they could reasonably achieve without kidnapping Gwen. Once they have her - they have a lot more options. I think Warren is surprised because it's so far outside the normal bell curve. If you had 10 samples.. 6 might be DOA (Norman and Winkler), 2 might show something minor than fail, one might be marginally better (this is Warren)... but then there is Gwen's. It's not without flaws .. but it's so far ahead of the others, like it would take months of interitive revision to even approach this, that once you eliminate the chance you made a mistake - you'd have to focus your efforts and figure out why. I get that, but writing "unsuccessful sample (Warren)" gives the impression that he is some other kind of isolated case, instead of just happening to be a convenient candidate, among its category. Surprised about the exceptionality of a sample, in a reduced set, is reasonable but, surprised about the identity of the person, whom the sample pertains to? I've edited the corrections.
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Post by vixx on Jul 6, 2016 20:49:30 GMT
Phase 2 clone has to be Warren. The timelines need a completed clone to sent to ESU, and if Winkler is dead and Norman (or Winkler) can't be cloned - only Warren can provide both a physical sample and act as the duplication candidate. One thing I want to make clear is it's hard and slow to make Gwen level clones - and that the ones that come out of this project represent the best they could reasonably achieve without kidnapping Gwen. Once they have her - they have a lot more options. I think Warren is surprised because it's so far outside the normal bell curve. If you had 10 samples.. 6 might be DOA (Norman and Winkler), 2 might show something minor than fail, one might be marginally better (this is Warren)... but then there is Gwen's. It's not without flaws .. but it's so far ahead of the others, like it would take months of interitive revision to even approach this, that once you eliminate the chance you made a mistake - you'd have to focus your efforts and figure out why. I get that, but writing "unsuccessful sample (Warren)" gives the impression that he is some other kind of isolated case, instead of just happening to be a convenient candidate, among its category. Surprised about the exceptionality of a sample, in a reduced set, is reasonable but, surprised about the identity of the person, whom the sample pertains to? I've edited the corrections. I'm cool if you want to edit language, don't care, that's not my strong suit More concerned with continuity / flow He's surprised at the results, I don't think he knows it's her until Norman tells him (blind study). Think he at most be " huh .. That's the girl that polishes my microscope. Interesting... (Back to something science-y). I don't think he hates people - he's probally great around young curious minds ... But they are what he's passionate about. Think he'd be more mad than Norman broke protocol and dug up a detailed profile. He'd figure out it was her the first time she stepped out of the tank
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 7, 2016 7:40:41 GMT
ASM #61 Winkler dies suddenly, while the project still is in the "memory integration phase". Norman is very concerned, and key personnel are being zapped (memories tampered) to install loyalty and remove details, putting distance between the project and Norman's involvement. Around ASM #66 - SSM #2A meeting with Norman goes very badly. They argue bitterly over the limitations of the mental process and its moral implications. Warren grills Norman on his blood, as the story given doesn’t really support what’s happening in the lab. Warren is confident the consciousness problems can be solved through a different process if other requirements - like memory reprogramming - are dropped.After discovering what Norman has been doing to the staff (memory wipes) - Warren threats to leave the project - Norman panics. As before, the Warren computer image (the record used to imprint new Warren clones) is updated to remove all references to Norman, and identify only Warren as being in charge - working under an independent Oscorp grant. Norman releases the Warren clone from its stasis chamber (the clone is a physically advanced version w/ memory profile installed). He zaps it to ensure no memory of the cloning, the project, etc. remains, and is sent back to the university to pick up Warren's life. Warren is loaded into a stasis chamber (too important to kill, to moral to continue and too dangerous to release). Citing the hardware projects as successful, Norman disbands the remaining teams, leaving just Alison Mongrain as curator, who will monitor the “blanks”. Alison creates a couple more Warren clones to staff the lab. They are loaded with his consciousness from the existing template. The lab systems automatically monitor, and routinely replace him - with updates gained from the data it reads. The lab is wiped (no history of Norman, twins, original DNA samples, etc.). All reference to Osborn, his blood, work in progress and the hybrid clones are altered or removed. They are marked as destroyed per protocol, but instead sent to a difference facility overseas. Keeping things flexible, I replaced Joyce with "the curator". If picked up, Marvel would most probably use a girl, anyway. Let's leave it up to them. She's had no previous role. If she plays one in the rest of the script, that calls for the character to be female, we can change it back. Think he at most be " huh .. That's the girl that polishes my microscope. You do realise that's quite the loaded sentence.
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Post by vixx on Jul 7, 2016 13:45:19 GMT
Ha! So not my intent For whomever winds up as the curator - my only suggestion is to pick one of the many, many minor redshirts they seem to introduce and kill off instead of someone new - having choked down a lot of the recent stuff, my vote is Allison She kind of shows up, does some of the most evil stuff ever done, seems to know Osborn, knows about Europe, then gets squashed by concrete. Shes connected to baby May and told Peter about Aunt May - which may or may not use some of the same resources. With her dying - you figure it's only a matter of time before the lab starts to decline before being discovered. Don't think you'd poison someone's unborn baby as a first assignment - and she seems to know a lot. Plus - she's is actually a nurse (for real) and they go out of her way to paint her as cold, uncaring, etc. - traits that would be required. Nice to tie it to a bit of the later stuff Also - not convinced Joyce was ever a real person - they said she was a fabrication and real in the same retconned *boggle* Bonus question: didn't Gwen clone and Miles have two kids too? Boy / girl?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 7, 2016 18:39:13 GMT
Allison... that must be from the 90's, never heard of her. From what you say, she could be a good curator. Are you confident in this character? There was a clone who ran off with a Miles (clone?) and they were taken care off in a bridge or something
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Post by vixx on Jul 7, 2016 20:32:11 GMT
Allison... that must be from the 90's, never heard of her. From what you say, she could be a good curator. Are you confident in this character? There was a clone who ran off with a Miles (clone?) and they were taken care off in a bridge or something Pretty confident - Nice subtle link to Baby May too - the plot hole you could drive a Mack truck through. She was clearly dropped in advance a plot then disposed of - but what I like is she would have to have a lot of trust with Norman to get these assignments, she's not some thug, she's a normal human - and until now - her stroy has been told...and during a poo arc that no one wants to remember. Long term, I think tying these throw away charectors together between the two clone arcs is a lot better for consistency than using two separate casts - and lets them be utilized in between with some other painful points if desired - like Warren at ESU, the Gwen clone, etc. If Osborn is in it for the long con, so would his people.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 7, 2016 21:02:49 GMT
I'm all up for retooling old characters, the more we use, the less it feels Deux Ex Machina.
Editing rewritten accordingly.
BTW, do you have the character's wiki entry?
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Post by vixx on Jul 7, 2016 21:33:34 GMT
I'm all up for retooling old characters, the more we use, the less it feels Deux Ex Machina. Editing rewritten accordingly. BTW, do you have the character's wiki entry? marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Alison_Mongrain_(Earth-616)not the best mug shot of her ... but I think there is a rule around the more evil you are, the more pronouced your RBF Other qualified redshirts Dr Folsome - delivered baby, injected Peter with something, handed him over to Norman Joyce - may or may not be a real person or alias of gc clone Serba - worked on cloning project at ESU until warren killed him Allison ( see above) poisoned MJ, kidnapped "baby" Sally Avril - from AF#15, died in car accident, wanted to be a sidekick, turned away by Spiderman (my wtf?! selection) Adam - from SM#6 - kid that spiderman saved from deamon hobgoblin, was marked on his face - if old enough, would make an interesting first responder when lab found or student at ESU Anne Marie baker - research grad student at ESU... From France (kind of the Matt Damon in the departed candidate) marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Anne-Marie_Baker_(Earth-616)Toni Moore - worked with Ben Reily at ESU hospital - Looks like a stripper version of Gwen lol Rick Barron - same as above, but a ginger with a 90s goatee
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 8, 2016 6:53:12 GMT
Link integrated. ASM #97 Harry's drug use is discovered (Note: being a student and friend of Gwen, he was tested - and like most samples (including Norman), was identified as a borderline candidate, genetic predisposition disqualifies him as for any of this research – Norman [now going trough the second GG relapse] grudgingly accepts this after Warren notes they can always revisit “in a few years” once the technology has advanced). Norman is disgusted about the drugs, and his son’s “weak” genes. Over time, Norman has gotten cruel towards Harry especially as work on the clones’ proceeds. He places all the failure of being a parent on Harry’s actions. Additionally, He hasn’t mentioned - or thought about - cloning Harry’s mom in ages. (i.e. Why? So she can see what a failure he is?”)He tries unsuccessfully to "fix" him with the brainwashing machine Writing Harry off as weak minded and an unworthy heir, he focuses more attention on the twins - as a path to worthy heirs and to speed up creation of his own clone. While at some level he cares about Harry, but he’s being eaten alive by thoughts of power and legacy… his burst of paternal concern is the best, and last, thing he does for Harry. ASM #121 Norman mind wipes [zaps] Harry again – but this time not just the drugs – but every little thing he has ever wanted Harry to do differently. He programed him with massive amounts of "improvements" and instructions – basically trying to rewrite Harry to be like him. Harry responds to the reprogramming poorly (explaining his actions, leading to him turning into the GG2), most likely a combination of being completely overloaded by the massive amount of data, drugs weakening his system, and just being genetically predisposed to not respond well to this kind of process. It’s like pouring a gallon into a shot glass.A drug relapse cover story is given. Norman grabs Gwen, drops her at the lab, dressing up the blank clone as her replacement. She is put in stasis. The Warren clones help. Note: he has plenty of time to do this before Spiderman finds him. He picks a fight with Spiderman, and she is "killed" Spiderman tracks Norman down and he dies unexpectedly. [moved to ASM #122]I may be a little confused now, with all the rewrites but Warren, as bolded in the first paragraph, is a clone right?
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Post by vixx on Jul 8, 2016 12:58:22 GMT
Not a clone, he's just remembering an earlier conversation - likely from when they were testing all the students, and they talk about His crazy sample[
Example -
Norman, please understand what you are asking me to do is beyond the boundaries of what can be done. You are a scientist - you know how this works.
First, you, your son, and a lot of other people are do not fall into the range we need to be viable candidates. While it's possible we refine that criteria as the techniques progress - but even if we solved that, your accident has made that unlikely. I know what you want to accomplish, but to do that we will have to find another way....
Figure that even with Gwen, there is just a lot of folks that are not able to participate at this phase... Or ever. The serum makes it much much harder.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 8, 2016 14:07:44 GMT
Well, "Warren notes" is in the present tense. If we're dealing with a recollection, it should read something like "Norman, now going trough the second GG relapse, grudgingly accepts this, after considering a previous conversation where Warren told him, about how they could always revisit the topic of memory tampering “in a few years”, once the technology was advanced enough".
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Post by vixx on Jul 8, 2016 17:59:41 GMT
Well, "Warren notes" is in the present tense. If we're dealing with a recollection, it should read something like "Norman, now going trough the second GG relapse, grudgingly accepts this, after considering a previous conversation where Warren told him, about how they could always revisit the topic of memory tampering “in a few years”, once the technology was advanced enough". However it fits - I'm not exactually sure when they had the conversation From Warrens viewpoint - I think the only way it really works if is he starts the whole thing thinking he's working with a respected peer with oscorps blessing - probably knowing based on reputation he's not Reed or Tony but certainly not fathoming he's a psycho Then as things progress - Norman and he argue more and more; over ideas, morals and methods mainly. He wouldn't know Warren is suffering episodes, doing shady stuff (and feeling pressure from shareholders, the board, etc) but would feel the impact - and his eyes would slowly open to Normans charecter You figure he has to think at some point - this guy .... So not my science soulmate... What a dick ... But shoot ... What are my options if I want to change the world? I think he'd underestimate Normans ability to comprehend the granularity of some of his research - feeling that he's a bit safer than he really is. This would escalate Until 1) Norman crosses some threshold that Warren won't bend on and 2) Norman chucks him in a tank. I think his last thought before drifting off to stasis would be along the lines of ok - wtf just happened? What I like about him being in stasis is he's pretty old when first portrayed , older than Norman - and even with running around with cloning equipment - they've never really explained how a guy who would have to be near his 70s now can do half what he does while still following the basic foundations of cloning that are known to be unbendable - plus, with Gwen frozen in time the bigger the age gap the creepier it gets; especially after Sins... Her whole thing has been revised to creepy old guys and being marked for death I do think these two talk fairly regularly and Warren would rattle on and on about how remarkable the Gwen sample is, how it's so much easier to work with... To the point it's like new parents talking about their baby .. Basically drilling it into Normans head that this blonde chick is the reason we are successful 1) Norman needs to understand this perfectly to have the right motivation and 2) Warren needs a deeply held reason for being attracted to Gwen that isn't so simple - given his massive decades long, post death obsession - want to sleep with the hot chick in class doesn't work. Friend: Warren - you realize she's been dead for 2 years? Warren: pfft. I can fix that Friend: really? Cure death? Do your wife and kids know? they'll be thrilled .. Warren: ... youbettershutup Warren: seriously I mourned them..I've filled enough Petri dishes with tears. In their memory, I slave away day and night on my life's work ... Friend: cloning a dead girl, 40 years your jr, who never knew you were attracted to her? Warren: it's what they would have wanted...
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 8, 2016 19:55:11 GMT
they've never really explained how a guy who would have to be near his 70s now can do half what he does You talk as if that was something they were used to (explaining). Did they ever explain, how Aunt May could be attending parties in a mini-skirt, not long ago?
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Post by vixx on Jul 8, 2016 23:16:26 GMT
they've never really explained how a guy who would have to be near his 70s now can do half what he does You talk as if that was something they were used to (explaining). Did they ever explain, how Aunt May could be attending parties in a mini-skirt, not long ago? It's May.. We love May. She gets a pass. Im just waiting for the allergic reaction from defective polyester to put her in the hospital near death for half a dozen issues. Think it's reasonable - my grandmothers superpower was occasional bouts of goofy, inbetween doubling as a nun from the blues brothers ... But it's when the infraction is on shakey ground to begin with, and you keep trotting it out, each time getting more and more silly to make it all fit.. Plus - it's just this whole basket of silly, and for me, they way it's always a precursor to a shitty Gwen clone story. I'm sitting there, thinking of all the stories they could have old ... Or the little nuggets they left for 6 issues ... Leads to .. Used socks at Christmas wrapped up as a transformer box... Yay. The Jackal. Woo. Like 40 years of Jackal / clone stories, a zillion retcons and not exactly a lot of originality or love isn't enough to get through that a pumped up hack of a villain shoehorned into a pretty decent SA background charecter isn't going to be awesome - no matter how often he's rolled out or inflated... Plus, he can never win. If he did, you'd know it's temporary .. because it just such a forced narrative at this point. He's too shitty to even be Buster Douglas... They literally told the last Jackal story 20 years ago. Run off to Mich. with grow a Gwen, have a few kids in suburbia ... All things completely attainable for him without fighting Spiderman. If he won - he'd probally wind up cloning Spidey just to have something to do on a Sat night. He could lock himself in a stasis chamber with a best of Gwen video on loop and be happier than he's ever been. Compare that to Normin - who would totally take over the world if he ever won - after a good 25 issues of violating Spider-Man's corpse, killing everyone he ever made eye contact with, hunting down the radioactive spider (or soaking that little guy in goblin formula)..
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