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Post by vixx on Jun 10, 2015 16:43:00 GMT
One problem with the writing is they have beat us over the head for years about people falling from high places - and spidey learning how to prevent whiplash. So I guess that's a lesson... the problem is they write him for 50 issues without a care in the world, then maybe one panel of somber guilt, then back to happy go lucky for another stretch.
With the compressed timeline, where everything from Uncle Ben, to Secret Wars, to Gwen, Harry, Kidnappings, Ned, Venom and more is happening in a very short span - I don't think his mood realistic.
You are right, it should affect him more in a grander way. He may have special powers, but that doesn't affect his ability to process things mentally. He's still just a guy in his 20's whose life gets very big, very fast.
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Post by dav on Jun 10, 2015 17:52:18 GMT
First, too many people forget that Peter had a cold during #121 and he was not in top shape. To blame Peter for Gwen's death IMHO is ridiculous. She was dead no matter what. I can throw all kinds of woulda, coulda, shoulda's and maybe's and what if's out there, but Peter made the best decision he could given the circumstances. Could he have jumped after her? Maybe he knew in his weakened state that he wouldn't have reached her in time. We can throw out hypotheticals all day but there is no real way to know. Let's also remember this is fiction, and it's what Conway wanted so all the discussion is irrelevant.
As for Gwen's virtue, in my case, no I don't want her to have had sex with Osborn, but to keep things current, IMHO For Gwen to have NOT had sex with Peter in today's world, even going back approximately ten years for her death, comic time, would be unrealistic. From my point of view, the time for she and Peter to have had sex the first time, would have been ASM #99. I don't consider virtuous and virginity to be synonymous. IMHO, carrying the timeline to a more modern setting with modern attitudes, she would probably have lost her virginity as a Junior in High School. She was still a good person but not "pure." I'm too lazy to go back and read Sins Past again, but I think something was said in there implying that she and Peter had never had sex, at least not before the Osborn incident. Even so, that can always be a simple retcon to correct this.
As for her being "bitchy," in the Ditko era she was, but maybe meeting Peter matured her somewhat. As I said before, different environments have caused me to be different, to adapt to that new environment. I can see her being bitchy in high school (met my fair share!), but in college she reevaluated her behavior and changed for the college environment and new and different people, especially Peter.
From my own experience again, I have been affected by good and bad experiences in my life, but the bad experiences are not as clear in my memory. This is a coping mechanism. if Bad and traumatic experiences were allowed to stay fresh in our minds we would be crippled and be unable to function. In order to survive, our minds will filter our memories and make the bad memories less vivid to allow us to go on with our lives. We do learn lessons from those bad experiences, but in order to get on with our lives our minds put them in proper perspective. Peter learned from Gwen's death, but he still had to get on with his life and would be faced with other life and death situations. He would have to act, and in some cases, even make the same choice if no other alternative is viable.
Life can leave us with tough choices, and sometimes we are damned if we do and damned if we don't, and the best we can do is choose the lesser of two evils which might be based solely on our point of view.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 10, 2015 17:58:57 GMT
[…] the problem is they write him for 50 issues without a care in the world, then maybe one panel of somber guilt, then back to happy go lucky for another stretch. With the compressed timeline, where everything from Uncle Ben, to Secret Wars, to Gwen, Harry, Kidnappings, Ned, Venom and more is happening in a very short span - I don't think his mood realistic. If you're addressing the character's reaction to Gwen's death, I agree. From my coverage of TNGSD:
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2015 8:49:50 GMT
[…] the problem is they write him for 50 issues without a care in the world, then maybe one panel of somber guilt, then back to happy go lucky for another stretch. With the compressed timeline, where everything from Uncle Ben, to Secret Wars, to Gwen, Harry, Kidnappings, Ned, Venom and more is happening in a very short span - I don't think his mood realistic. If you're addressing the character's reaction to Gwen's death, I agree. From my coverage of TNGSD: The guys at Marvel knew that in the real world this would have been an event that would have screwed an ordinary person up for months, but they had to get on with the comic. Nobody was going to buy a comic that had Peter moping around for the next six issues, so they had to minimize his grieving as much as possible. Also, this might have been an attempt to teach a life lesson to their readers. You can't let a tragedy cripple your life. You have to move on with your life and compartmentalize your grief. Save your grieving for when you can afford to grieve, otherwise you will neglect the rest of your life. Tragedies may happen, but the world still goes on. Actually, Marvel did a good job putting Peter through the grieving process over the next three issues. They also had the supporting characters act appropriately as well. Instead of allowing him to wallow in self pity, they tried to get him to keep his mind off it and even employed some tough love.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2015 10:13:13 GMT
Regardless of what point they were trying to get across, it didn't work for me. I would've done it differently (if forced to do it, of course).
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2015 14:50:00 GMT
Regardless of what point they were trying to get across, it didn't work for me. I would've done it differently (if forced to do it, of course). After going back and reading #123-125 focusing on the grief aspect, IMHO they did a good job. All his friends were there for Peter, gave him a LOT of leeway regarding his pain and rage and also gave him tough love when he needed it. He HAD to be forced to get on with his life for his own sake. Out of curiosity, how WOULD you have done it?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2015 16:02:52 GMT
At the very least, he would've grieved for muuuch longer, never got involved with MJ, and fallen for the clone ruse, like a dolt.
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2015 18:54:14 GMT
At the very least, he would've grieved for muuuch longer, never got involved with MJ, and fallen for the clone ruse, like a dolt. In real life, your approach would be realistic, but from a publisher's standpoint, they needed to get things back on track. However, after giving it some thought, I definitely agree with you that there should have been something more with the grieving. Perhaps a good crisis-of-faith story, in #123. Something along the lines of "Spiderman No More" in #50. Where he goes through a reevaluation of his life, filled with self doubt and confusion and something happens that gets him at least slightly back on track. Then in #124 have the Luke Cage Story, which would put him a little more back on track and so on. Then after about five more issues, have things get back to a degree of normalcy. As for MJ, I agree with you, to have him get involved with someone so different from Gwen that soon after her death isn't realistic, unless there was to be a rebound type of situation. As for the clone part, that IMHO was bad writing, but I'll bet it sold like hell! I don't see him falling for the clone ruse so to speak. At that time, with fingerprints and everything that was presented to him, I could see him being VERY confused and maybe even in a way hopeful. He would still be grieving to a certain degree, and still have feelings for Gwen which it was clear in the comics he still did. I wouldn't call him a dolt, more like vulnerable. Having said all that, it must be remembered that this is fiction and you have writers who are just trying to grind out stories to make deadlines and who definitely wouldn't have put as much thought into it as we are!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2015 19:04:34 GMT
MJ wasn't just different, she was the "other" girl in the triangle. Getting into a relationship with her, would be a constant reminder.
In the particular case of the Clone Sage, I think Conway put some thought into it, and knew what he was doing. He was trying to send the message, that Peter had turned the page on Gwen. That final panel in ASM #149 is a declaration of intentions, for the following writer: MJ is the real deal, Gwen was more of a fling (this last part was made abundantly clear in ASM #146, page 4).
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Post by vixx on Jun 16, 2015 4:27:34 GMT
MJ wasn't just different, she was the "other" girl in the triangle. Getting into a relationship with her, would be a constant reminder. In the particular case of the Clone Sage, I think Conway put some thought into it, and knew what he was doing. He was trying to send the message, that Peter had turned the page on Gwen. That final panel in ASM #149 is a declaration of intentions, for the following writer: MJ is the real deal, Gwen was more of a fling (this last part was made abundantly clear in ASM #146, page 4). the other girl in the triangle isn't all bad ... from personal experience, it's really nice have your own strong relationship with someone, to have them really know the person you are missing, and isn't threatened by their memory. It takes maturity and confidence - at a level most don't have in their 20's like the books; I always through that was one things in the Peter/MJ relationship they got spot on. Guessing the writers were older. The problem I have is when they basically started torturing MJ
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 16, 2015 6:44:00 GMT
Guessing the writers were older. Not Gerry, he was 19 when he started on Spidey.
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Post by spiderman62 on Jul 3, 2015 16:37:52 GMT
Why don't we just put her in the Lazarus Pit? Worked for Sara Lance
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 3, 2015 18:25:32 GMT
I take it, you keep watching "Arrow".
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Post by spiderman62 on Jul 18, 2015 16:17:54 GMT
For now yes. Although I freely admit to being largely disappointed with Season 3. I'm hoping Season 4 will be an improvement at least. And besides, Caity Lotz is coming back in it which is awesome IMO LOL.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 19, 2015 7:48:28 GMT
One of my least favorite characters, I liked the Huntress much better. In any case, I grew tired with season 2. Too much quality TV around, to keep watching that wich isn't entirely convincing.
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