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Post by dav on Jun 1, 2014 10:35:56 GMT
Gwen was originally written to be Peter's great love. Her death tragically cut short this great romance. This thread was created to discuss how to bring her back so that she and Peter can have the relationship that was denied them by her death.
My personal preference would be to have her come back in the present day, and having aged proportionately with Peter so that their relationship could be feasible.
There is the issue, however, with Sins Past that tarnished her image and memory!
Is there a way to bring her back AND erase Sins Past?
Should there be a retcon to fix this?
Should she be brought back without Sins Past or should it just be included in her history?
Is there a way to bring her back without resorting to a deus ex machina plot device?
What is the BEST way to bring her back so that Marvel might go along with it? (This is the important one!)
Let's talk!
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Post by dav on Jun 1, 2014 10:58:45 GMT
I had an outline for a story where Gwen received some Goblin regeneration formula in her "exchange" with Norman in Sins Past. She was revived and imprisoned by Norman's henchmen. She had amnesia and escaped and was wandering around for ten years until her memory returned. Her body was replaced by another cadaver and samples of her fluids were injected to make any testing give ambiguous readings that COULD be mistaken for Gwen. Of course this implies that Sins Past actually happened! This, of course, would be unacceptable to those that prefer Sins Past to be erased, so any ideas to correct the Sins Past sacrilege would be welcome! Also, I would prefer a non-deus ex machina solution, but as long as it would bring Gwen back, I have an open mind! (especially if Marvel likes it!) Your input would be greatly appreciated!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 1, 2014 11:05:02 GMT
Gwen was originally written to be Peter's great love. Her death tragically cut short this great romance. This thread was created to discuss how to bring her back so that she and Peter can have the relationship that was denied them by her death.
My personal preference would be to have her come back in the present day, and having aged proportionately with Peter so that their relationship could be feasible.
There is the issue, however, with Sins Past that tarnished her image and memory!
Is there a way to bring her back AND erase Sins Past?
Should there be a retcon to fix this?
Should she be brought back without Sins Past or should it just be included in her history?
Is there a way to bring her back without resorting to a deus ex machina plot device?
What is the BEST way to bring her back so that Marvel might go along with it? (This is the important one!)
Let's talk! Ok, do you think you can recreate the CBR thread here? Omitting some stuff, obviously. If Kurt and Tiger come over here, it would be easier. If not, you could also post their opinions, similarly to what I did in the "Land" board using a dummy user, to impersonate your questions.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 2, 2014 6:57:18 GMT
I would rather bring her back in 1984, just before the Secret Wars. Just before DeFalco, and the completion of the MJ plan that Conway set in motion. Furthermore, Sins Past can't be accepted as canon. It contradicts both the history of the book and the depiction of all the characters involved in the plot, not just Gwen. I consider JMS's run second to none, other than Stern's, but his collaboration with Deodato was subpar. Go back to 1984, and all that disappears.
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Post by dav on Jun 2, 2014 22:08:24 GMT
I would rather bring her back in 1984, just before the Secret Wars. Just before DeFalco, and the completion of the MJ plan that Conway set in motion. Furthermore, Sins Past can't be accepted as canon. It contradicts both the history of the book and the depiction of all the characters involved in the plot, not just Gwen. I consider JMS's run second to none, other than Stern's, but his collaboration with Deodato was subpar. Go back to 1984, and all that disappears.
It would be nice to reboot or retcon everything back to 1984, but I personally can't conceive of a storyline that could accomplish all that, but I am open to suggestions! VolcanikTiger came up with an excellent story outline about finding Gwen imprisoned by Norman Osborn, and there might be a way of writing Sins Past out within that story. Perhaps he can devise a plot to do that!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 2, 2014 22:27:40 GMT
It would be nice to reboot or retcon everything back to 1984, but I personally can't conceive of a storyline that could accomplish all that, but I am open to suggestions! VolcanikTiger came up with an excellent story outline about finding Gwen imprisoned by Norman Osborn, and there might be a way of writing Sins Past out within that story. Perhaps he can devise a plot to do that! The Beyonder, that's the key to getting things to were they were. The same way any user would make a copy of a computer file, before working with it, The Beyonder would make a copy of the entire multiverse, just before entering it. Since then, we would have two identical MUs, in one of them his actions would lead to the known MU, the other one, free from his legacy, would be the starting point for new stories. This approach gives editors more freedom, because the known post-1984 MU continues unaltered. The new one would be free of constrains, because most people would mistakenly take it for an alternate universe. I already outlined this story in the old forums, and I know for a fact that people don't grasp the meaning of this.
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Post by dav on Jun 2, 2014 22:54:18 GMT
The Beyonder, that's the key to getting things to were they were. The same way any user would make a copy of a computer file, before working with it, The Beyonder would make a copy of the entire multiverse, just before entering it. Since then, we would have two identical MUs, in one of them his actions would lead to the known MU, the other one, free from his legacy, would be the starting point for new stories. This approach gives editors more freedom, because the known post-1984 MU continues unaltered. The new one would be free of constrains, because most people would mistakenly take it for an alternate universe. I already outlined this story in the old forums, and I know for a fact that people don't grasp the meaning of this. I do grasp the meaning of your plot, the one concern I have is will it have enough strength to warrant starting a new comic? What is important to me would be being able to see Peter and Gwen live out the life together they were meant to have. To show what would have been had she not died, or if she were brought back and she and Peter were reunited. I can see your story working well as a What If? story or maybe some kind of limited run like House of M, but I personally would want to see the relationship played out in the long term, with all the drama and emotion that was there between them before #121. I can't imagine Marvel being willing to do ANOTHER reboot to bring this about, but I might be wrong. I believe they would be more open to having her brought back within the 616 universe. Having said that, the Beyonder would be a great deus ex machina character to bring Gwen back AND erase Sins Past. It could be kind of like a positive, reverse OMD.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 2, 2014 23:09:34 GMT
When I said "the key to getting things to [the way] they were", I meant how they were in 1984. Gwen was dead then. The Beyonder duplicating the multiverse wouldn't undo that. The MU would be at the same point it was in April, 1984. Bringing Gwen back, would be the result of another character's doing, one closer to Spidey, one he also met around that time.
The 1984 setting would be good not just for a new comic, but an entire line of comics. This would be a "New" Marvel Universe. Only it would be the original. It's not an alternate universe, but a fork, this is were people get confused.
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Post by dav on Jun 2, 2014 23:47:52 GMT
When I said "the key to getting things to [the way] they were", I meant how they were in 1984. Gwen was dead then. The Beyonder duplicating the multiverse wouldn't undo that. The MU would be at the same point it was in April, 1984. Bringing Gwen back, would be the result of another character's doing, one closer to Spidey, one he also met around that time. The 1984 setting would be good not just for a new comic, but an entire line of comics. This would be a "New" Marvel Universe. Only it would be the original. It's not an alternate universe, but a fork, this is were people get confused.
Who would you have bringing Gwen back and how? My idea would actually have to incorporate Sins Past for Gwen to be revivable. Is there another "hyperbeing" like Mephisto, or the Beyonder or the Watcher that you would use to bring her back, or do you have a non-dues ex machina method in mind for bringing her back?
I do understand your concept of a fork in the timeline. Would there be ANOTHER timeline started at this point, or would it basically be a reboot back to 1984 and the original timeline altered, basically "bending" the timeline?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 3, 2014 7:16:02 GMT
You would have both the earth 616 we know, and a "new" one where we can start to change events, due to the butterfly effect. That's why I said "this approach gives editors more freedom", because most people would assume that the "old" earth 616 is the real one, and that the "new" is an alternate version. So there would be less pressure about what it could be done. Writers should be given, the leeway they usually get when working with other earths, while having the continuity intact.
A note regarding continuity, things like "Sins Past", MJ having known Peter's nocturnal activities since day one, as well as any other flashback stories or retcons, would be better left ignored. You can also do it after the fact, for example, the ability to create organic webbing, is no longer mentioned, is it still there? Who knows? But obviously, one thing is the extent of his powers and another very different one is Gwen's affair. But go back in time and those reveals have not been made yet. Agreed, the events themselves supposedly already took place, but show me where, in the original work, you can actually squeeze those changes in. I don't see any good reason, to go with a story that didn't fit in the original continuity, simply because it was later stuffed in the "old" earth 616. Let's respect a little more the original work.
Who would bring her back? Thomas Fireheart, the same person who bought the Bugle to try and pay a debt. Instead of that, it would be better to have him give Peter something he really wants and wouldn't refuse. How would he do it? Four words. Von Doom's time machine.
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Post by dav on Jun 3, 2014 7:48:25 GMT
You would have both the earth 616 we know, and a "new" one where we can start to change events, due to the butterfly effect. That's why I said "this approach gives editors more freedom", because most people would assume that the "old" earth 616 is the real one, and that the "new" is an alternate version. So there would be less pressure about what it could be done. Writers should be given, the leeway they usually get when working with other earths, while having the continuity intact. A note regarding continuity, things like "Sins Past", MJ having known Peter's nocturnal activities since day one, as well as any other flashback stories or retcons, would be better left ignored. You can also do it after the fact, for example, the ability to create organic webbing, is no longer mentioned, is it still there? Who knows? But obviously, one thing is the extent of his powers and another very different one is Gwen's affair. But go back in time and those reveals have not been made yet. Agreed, the events themselves supposedly already took place, but show me where, in the original work, you can actually squeeze those changes in. I don't see any good reason, to go with a story that didn't fit in the original continuity, simply because it was later stuffed in the "old" earth 616. Let's respect a little more the original work. Who would bring her back? Thomas Fireheart, the same person who bought the Bugle to try and pay a debt. Instead of that, it would be better to have him give Peter something he really wants and wouldn't refuse. How would he do it? Four words. Von Doom's time machine.
Von Doom's time machine. I like it!
I still have the concern that this concept may not have enough traction to appeal to Marvel, but at the very least it is an idea to work with. Clearly, the MU has far too many incredulous stories including of course OMD, but would they be willing to start another alternate comic to accommodate this concept? Ultimate Spider-man was designed to appeal to a new audience and had significant differences to 616, but this concept might hit too close to home to appeal to a new and sizable audience. This is only my point of view however! It would call for market testing to find out what interest there would be.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 3, 2014 8:00:26 GMT
I'm just trying to outline a story I would read. What the geniuses at Marvel would do with it, is beyond me. An 80's scenery wouldn't appeal new readers, but maybe it would bring back old ones who just don't care about post 80's characters. You can find a lot of them in the classic comics forum, for example.
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Post by dav on Jun 3, 2014 8:16:03 GMT
I'm just trying to outline a story I would read. What the geniuses at Marvel would do with it, is beyond me. An 80's scenery wouldn't appeal new readers, but maybe it would bring back old ones who just don't care about post 80's characters. You can find a lot of them in the classic comics forum, for example.
That is a good point. I am still looking at the mainstream Spidey fan in order to maximize sales, but a loyal older audience could definitely find this concept appealing. This is how Star Trek managed to have so many successful incarnations, so there is potential.
Let's run with this. Give me a basic outline as to how this alternate universe would be created, and how Von Doom's time machine would be used and the where, when, who it would be used to prevent Gwen's death. Remember it can't be TOO simple! There has to be drama!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 3, 2014 14:23:39 GMT
Believe me, it isn't simple.
There are many elements to isolate and clarify.
1 In 1983, the time platform was still in possession of the FF, and in 1987 it was in the hands of the west coast avengers, who had borrowed it from the FF. Would it be safe too assume they had it in-between?
2 We would need to get both a LDM for Norman to kidnap, as well as a brainless Gwen clone, to kill and leave for burial.
3 There's the matter of the autopsy. Fingerprints were taken from the body and it was said, at the end of ASM #145, that they matched those of her living clone. That's not possible, because "The pattern of our fingerprints is set up by our genes. Just like with other genes, though, the environment can change how we turn out. While you were growing inside of your mother, you touched the amniotic sac. When you touched it during weeks 6-13, the patterns of your fingerprints were changed." Do we bother to fix Conway's mistake?
These are the tricky parts. The rest is rather straightforward.
As for the duplication of the entire multiverse, not the creation of "this alternate universe", there is as much to explain about it, as when we saw The Beyonder destroying an entire galaxy in the blink of an eye. He was basically God, and could do as he pleased. We're only interested in earth-616, but the fact is that he came from beyond, a place outside the multiverse, so it stands to "reason" that all of it, as a whole, would be the same to him. So we get a copy of every earth, alternate dimension, pocket universe… the works. As for his reasons for doing it, you can say it was a reflex, an afterthought, or you could argue that it isn't the place of men to question God's actions. The thing is, this is when the MU started to goo wrong. Such a being has no place in it, and if the only way to get rid of him and his legacy, is trough his own actions, so be it.
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Post by dav on Jun 3, 2014 16:57:53 GMT
Disregard this post. Somehow I screwed up with the quote function!
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