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Post by dav on May 22, 2015 7:54:23 GMT
A sane universe, you say? Did Marvel have any of those? Not now, but before Secret Wars, I mean. That said, it makes for a funny turn of events, because I've been recently campaigning for SP to be retconned. It was in the latest thread about the topic, at CBR. I was of your opinion before, but the fact is that we Gwen fans, are greatly outnumbered by MJ fans (2 to 1 at least), and they would never leave SP alone. In order to move on, I think we need to destroy that story, the problem being that the way I proposed to do it, was tied to the 1984 universe. With recent developments in Time Runs Out, what we knew about The Beyonders, has changed. I'll wait for the new Secret Wars to end, before revisiting that concept. The idea of bestowing powers on civilians, in the MU, is something I don't like. The way Lee depicted Gwen, was my ideal woman, having her climbing walls doesn't improve the character in the slightest, as far as I'm concerned. Furthermore, this is a different character with a different history and personality. I'm not saying I'm against it, but seeing (for example) people pollute CBR's Gwen Appreciation thread, with Spider-Gwen material, certainly displeases me. Touche! Let me rephrase: A less insane universe! Actually after this new Secret Wars all kinds of possibilities are there. It wouldn't be hard to add additional repercussions after the fact that could resolve your issues, given a willing writer. I mean look what they did with OMD OMIT and BND. Same thing could be done with new Secret Wars. We're talking about beings with Godlike powers, so anything is possible. Bestowing powers on civilians ain't great but then again neither is cloning them! LOL From my perspective Lee's Gwen was the ideal woman... for Peter. Did you mean THAT or is she in fact your personal preference? Not meaning to get too personal but knowing this can enhance our discussions. To be fair I will expose myself as well and tell you that for me out of the Spidey franchise, I think my choice might be either Jill Stacy (I like dark hair) or Deb Whitman. I see Gwen and Jill as strong women and although I admire that in women it might personally be more than I can handle. I'm not saying that Deb is weak, rather she is a more sensitive and diplomatic soul which are virtues in their own right. As for Spider-Gwen, From my perspective I see her as being the same person as Gwen but a product of her environment and experience. Getting back to reality(!), I know from personal experience that depending on the environment I'm in, determines what traits in me assert themselves. While I was in the AF I found that I was somewhat of a different person in different situations. While I was Stateside I was a different person than I was in a potential war zone. Never served in combat, but if I had I have a feeling that a surprisingly strong part of me would assert itself. I have experienced glimpses of what I am capable of and it is quite surprising. So for me, to look at Spider-Gwen coming to Earth 616 and reverting to a more recognizable Gwen, given a period of time, is quite plausible. As for the people on CBR, don't let them get to you, buddy. It's not worth it. Although I don't feel guilty about how things ended between me and the CBR administration, I regret that there couldn't have been a more amicable resolution. They were jerks to me, but I was a jerk as well by letting then get to me. Take a step back and get some perspective and just allow them to have their opinions. After all, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and everyone thinks that the other person's stinks! LOL
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Post by Ozymandias on May 22, 2015 8:37:31 GMT
With regard to Secret Wars, that's indeed my approach, wait to see what happens and, afterwards, postulate what could be done. The resulting universe could be very different to the current MU, or it could be exactly the same, with the incorporation of some Ultimate Universe characters, maybe from Earth-65 and others, too. Actually, I don't think she's the ideal woman for Peter, because he didn't deserve her I only read EoSV #2, so I can't say for sure, but in general, things like experience and the environment, do shape personality. If you were to move character A to the same environment of B, it would never be the same as B (even if they were genetically identical) because their starting point, wasn't the same. Add to that, 2015's MU isn't at all like 1973's. I can ignore other people's opinion's, but I prefer to do it after disproving them. If they want to insist on being right, even when they're wrong, that's not my problem anymore.
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Post by dav on May 23, 2015 1:01:26 GMT
With regard to Secret Wars, that's indeed my approach, wait to see what happens and, afterwards, postulate what could be done. The resulting universe could be very different to the current MU, or it could be exactly the same, with the incorporation of some Ultimate Universe characters, maybe from Earth-65 and others, too. Actually, I don't think she's the ideal woman for Peter, because he didn't deserve her I only read EoSV #2, so I can't say for sure, but in general, things like experience and the environment, do shape personality. If you were to move character A to the same environment of B, it would never be the same as B (even if they were genetically identical) because their starting point, wasn't the same. Add to that, 2015's MU isn't at all like 1973's. I can ignore other people's opinion's, but I prefer to do it after disproving them. If they want to insist on being right, even when they're wrong, that's not my problem anymore. #1 Wait and see. Cool #2 Them are fightin' words! LOL Who do you see as the ideal woman for Peter (or the best fit given the characters available.) So she IS your ideal women! Hey, ya got good taste! #3 Given dramatic license you can make anything work if you want it to work and you can make anything not work if you want. These are fictional characters. If you want them to work they will, if you don't they won't. We can't apply logic to this. You don't want Spider Gwen and 616 Peter to work and you will use whatever rationalizations you want to justify that. I would do the opposite. It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's one of preference. Having said that I'm dropping this discussion. #4 Again, opinions are not a matter of right or wrong they are a matter of preference. If you want to engage these guys on CBR, it's your call, Juan. Just try and keep some perspective, so that you don't get banned. Then again, referring to what I said before on the Top 100 thread I think Mets probably gets off on this stuff! Anyway, as I said this specific discussion is closed for me. If you want to refer back to earlier posts on this thread or bring up a new point great, but this Spider Gwen Stuff is closed for me.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 23, 2015 8:29:18 GMT
I don't remember where or when I said it, but I think that MJ being as much of a jerk with the opposite sex as Peter, makes for an appropriate match. That's of course, considering how things were left between Gwen and Peter. If they hadn't killed the character, sooner or later she would've changed him, and over time he would've been worthy.
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Post by dav on May 25, 2015 0:06:14 GMT
I don't remember where or when I said it, but I think that MJ being as much of a jerk with the opposite sex as Peter, makes for an appropriate match. That's of course, considering how things were left between Gwen and Peter. If they hadn't killed the character, sooner or later she would've changed him, and over time he would've been worthy. At the time Peter had justification for being a jerk, trying to live up to his vow to his Uncle Ben. MJ wasn't given justification until much later when they filled in her background with her abusive family. Before that, she was just a shallow party girl. It can be argued that Gwen only tolerated Peter being a jerk because she sensed there was something much deeper, much nobler about him. Traits that she admired in her father. I have noticed that writers have an incredible insight into the human condition, and that they are able to write this type of subtlety into a character almost intuitively. They can write great complexity into a character while they themselves are quite simple and down to Earth. Again the Romita interview gave me this insight.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 25, 2015 9:02:09 GMT
I think you're right, regarding both Peter's reasons and Gwen's subtleties. I guess I feel the character should've resolved those moral dilemmas, without resorting to continuos lying. You can keep doing what you know is right, and be honest with your partner about it. You risk losing your companion, if what you do is dress up as a vigilante, but even though that fear of loss is understandable, it's not morally inspiring. As for Gwen being more complex, than what the authors probably had in mind, that's the beauty of a work of art, it lives on and changes in the eyes of the beholder, beyond what the creator intended consciously. The Chameleonic Gwen thread is all about that.
And yes, MJ was probably an even bigger jerk to men (specially poor Harry, who she basically drove to drugs). I got carried away.
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Post by dav on May 25, 2015 16:02:32 GMT
I think you're right, regarding both Peter's reasons and Gwen's subtleties. I guess I feel the character should've resolved those moral dilemmas, without resorting to continuos lying. You can keep doing what you know is right, and be honest with your partner about it. You risk losing your companion, if what you do is dress up as a vigilante, but even though that fear of loss is understandable, it's not morally inspiring. As for Gwen being more complex, than what the authors probably had in mind, that's the beauty of a work of art, it lives on and changes in the eyes of the beholder, beyond what the creator intended consciously. The Chameleonic Gwen thread is all about that. And yes, MJ was probably an even bigger jerk to men (specially poor Harry, who she basically drove to drugs). I got carried away. In an ideal world, deception wouldn't be necessary, but sadly in reality it is and yes, in some cases for noble reasons. Also it's not like this is an uncommon plot device! As boyfriend and girlfriend, I consider it to be acceptable, but as a married couple, deception is less acceptable, but if it serves a noble, selfless purpose, then there can be exceptions. The very fact that superheroes maintain this deception but still do not cross ethical lines, is why they make good role models. This is not a black and white world. There are always exceptions. Despite what we know now to be a lie on the part of the creators regarding Gwen being boring, even today there is plenty of room for depth if she were brought back. The fate of her mother has still never been addressed. Within that issue is huge potential for depth much like MJ's childhood brought a new depth and empathy to a character who was presented as "a jerk" previously. The potential for building on her mother's fate could be staggering. Having Gwen's mother die in a tragic or mysterious way or disappear under suspicious circumstances, could create incredible depth to her character. There is also the potential for mitigating her behavior in Sins Past. Because of MJ's traumatic childhood her behaving like a "jerk" was made understandable. If Gwen's mother's fate had a traumatic effect upon Gwen, she could have had some kind of breakdown that lead to her encounter with Osborn. If one looks back at her history some of her behavior can be interpreted as erratic. Some of her behavior can also be considered an overreaction to circumstances. What was it about Peter that she found so intriguing? Perhaps she could subconsciously be relating to the loss of Uncle Ben. Maybe she was is some indirect way responsible for her mother's fate (notice I didn't say death. There are many other things that could have happened to her besides death that could make a very enticing story) making her and Peter kindred spirits. Of course Death would be the obvious option, but the circumstances of her death could make interesting reading. Murder, cancer, suicide. Murder would probably the best option considering Capt Stacy's occupation. Then again, a mysterious disappearance, being committed to a mental hospital, injury that left her in a coma are all possibilities. Plenty of potential to give Gwen depth and make her an extremely sympathetic character (and the reason she is in fact Peter's soul mate!) THIS is the kind of conversations I wanted to have on CBR. I know that there are people at Marvel who have read posts on CBR. Someone reads this and is inspired to bring Gwen back, because they become aware of her potential as a character in the Spidey franchise. (Maybe I'm getting paranoid, but maybe Mets could see what I was doing and saw that I had some good ideas and wanted to sabotage my efforts because of his MJ bias!) This is one of the reasons that my hope was to bring back 616 Gwen. I just saw so much potential. I will humbly admit that my original plan was to not disrupt the Spidey timeline, especially after so much time with trying to bring Gwen Back. My original idea was to have Ben Reilly meet the Gwen clone and they have a separate title for them to operate in. That was before I discovered they had brought back Norman Osborn! When I found that out I thought "No F##king way! They bring back Osborn they better damn well bring back Gwen!" I also had another idea about taking What If #24 and starting a new title using that alternate timeline. Hell, it could be a crossover superhero/romance comic called "Spidey loves Gwen" and appeal to the female demographic! I didn't really care as long as in some way some version of Peter and some version of Gwen got the chance to live the life the original Peter and Gwen were supposed to have. That has always been my objective. Not necessarily 616 Peter or 616 Gwen, but some derivative of which Peter and Gwen have the relationship they were supposed to have. Hell I am even willing to consider Peter and JILL Stacy as long as they are able to have a life close to what Peter and Gwen were supposed to have, and as we know it ALMOST happened, but they hadda go and bring back MJ! Those bastards! (A little South Park reference! Hell, you can almost see it! "They killed Gwen!" Kyle exclaimed. "Those bastards!" screamed Stan. LOL)
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Post by Ozymandias on May 25, 2015 18:45:16 GMT
I wasn't talking about ethics, but moral conduct. There're all sorts of ethic theories, defending different takes on moral problems, but in everyday life, lying isn't easily justified. In this particular case, I don't see a good reason for hiding his secret identity, from someone he was planning on spending the rest of his life with.
Filling the gaps, in a character's biography, with dramatic events that "add depth" to its personality, is something I don't remember working so well for me. In general, I prefer the supporting cast to have boring "normal" lives, to better contrast the main character's adventurous exploits. This is also the reason why, I don't like super-powered "civilians". Probably the only "but" I can find in Stern's run, was him planting the seed for the MJ retcon.
They brought back Norman twenty years ago. Gwen still doesn't look to be in the cards, so much for fairness.
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Post by dav on May 26, 2015 0:39:53 GMT
I wasn't talking about ethics, but moral conduct. There're all sorts of ethic theories, defending different takes on moral problems, but in everyday life, lying isn't easily justified. In this particular case, I don't see a good reason for hiding his secret identity, from someone he was planning on spending the rest of his life with. Filling the gaps, in a character's biography, with dramatic events that "add depth" to its personality, is something I don't remember working so well for me. In general, I prefer the supporting cast to have boring "normal" lives, to better contrast the main character's adventurous exploits. This is also the reason why, I don't like super-powered "civilians". Probably the only "but" I can find in Stern's run, was him planting the seed for the MJ retcon. They brought back Norman twenty years ago. Gwen still doesn't look to be in the cards, so much for fairness. #1 I'm sure that eventually Peter was going to get around to telling Gwen before the got married. The difficulty was in that she still blamed Spidey for her fathers death. There was still a question as to how much she hated Spiderman compared to how much she loved Peter. Maybe he was just trying to ease her into the secret in a way that she might be able to understand. Even in What If #24 She still despised Spiderman until Peter got a chance to tell his side of the story. And if it hadn't been for the fact he had just saved her life, she probably wouldn't have been willing to listen. Gwen could be quite stubborn and proud on occasion! #2 The two-dimensional characters of the Silver Age needed to be updated for the more sophisticated readers of today. The same way they added depth to MJ they would have to do to Gwen as well. Even in the real world, in the 60's people kept a lot of their personal lives to themselves. Today people are more open and less things are stigmatized. Gwen would have to be given more depth in order to NOT be boring today. #3 You have a passion for honesty, and I have a passion for justice. Agreed, the world ain't a fair place!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 26, 2015 8:27:06 GMT
We'll never know, they could just as well have continued, offering excuses for him to not do it.
I thought we agreed that, at least some characters, were two-dimensional just at first glance. I don't find 60's Gwen boring, today, and I didn't find MJ boring, before the retcon.
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Post by dav on May 26, 2015 23:18:17 GMT
We'll never know, they could just as well have continued, offering excuses for him to not do it. I thought we agreed that, at least some characters, were two-dimensional just at first glance. I don't find 60's Gwen boring, today, and I didn't find MJ boring, before the retcon. I can't remember agreeing with that, although if a character is only going to be around for a while, or only serves as a minor character, then there's no need to get deeper. If Gwen is brought back I would most definitely want her to be a major character so she would have to have some depth. She could still remain virtuous but there would need to be some backstory. This is where an alternate Universe Gwen could work. As I said, she could come from an alternate universe where there's no Sins Past and she didn't die (duh!). The loss of her mother would have an effect on her that could be revealed and make her even more lovable and sympathetic. Depth is not a bad thing. in the case of MJ it was a good thing. In the case of Gwen it could explain her motivations and also show why she and Peter are a perfect match. Explain why she was drawn to him intuitively. All the issues that Peter has, Gwen could have in a different way. Loss of Uncle Ben and the loss of her mother is just a start. As for Gwen and Mj being boring, maybe they were just getting harder to write for, then again maybe the writers, as I have discovered after reading the Romita interview, just wanted to mix things up. Maybe the publisher, wanting to increase sales, directed the writers to make Peter single again.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 27, 2015 7:22:32 GMT
I thought we agreed on that, in posts 5 and 6, on this very page. As for explaining everything, I prefer to leave something, for the reader to interpret.
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Post by dav on May 27, 2015 22:57:33 GMT
I thought we agreed on that, in posts 5 and 6, on this very page. As for explaining everything, I prefer to leave something, for the reader to interpret. I'm afraid you're going to have to give me the quotes, because I don't see it. More than likely this is just a miscommunication. By the way, Along the lines of miscommunication, I now see how I misunderstood your idea about the beyonder creating a new alternate universe, It wouldn't be identical to the original MU, it would be missing Sins Past and whatever else the Beyonder decided to omit (or we decided to omit.)
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Post by Ozymandias on May 28, 2015 12:29:09 GMT
These are the parts, of the aforementioned posts I have noticed that writers have an incredible insight into the human condition, and that they are able to write this type of subtlety into a character almost intuitively. As for Gwen being more complex, than what the authors probably had in mind, that's the beauty of a work of art, it lives on and changes in the eyes of the beholder, beyond what the creator intended consciously. which made me think we agreed on: "at least some characters, were two-dimensional just at first glance".
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Post by dav on May 28, 2015 14:16:50 GMT
These are the parts, of the aforementioned posts I have noticed that writers have an incredible insight into the human condition, and that they are able to write this type of subtlety into a character almost intuitively. As for Gwen being more complex, than what the authors probably had in mind, that's the beauty of a work of art, it lives on and changes in the eyes of the beholder, beyond what the creator intended consciously. which made me think we agreed on: "at least some characters, were two-dimensional just at first glance". In that context almost every character when they are first introduced are two dimensional, and as I said in an earlier post (I'm too tired to reference it right now) as the character becomes more relevant and important the writers will add depth to it. So, yes, at first glance almost all characters are two dimensional. If the writers were to bring Gwen back, they could start off with her being two dimensional as she basically was in the Silver Age but it would be necessary to develop her in the present for her have more depth. It also needs to be pointed out that depth is also relative. When one compares the Silver Age to today, characters who would be considered to have depth in The Silver Age are relatively shallow compared to the characters today. Ya gotta keep up with the times and, with respect to Gwen. she would have to be given depth or she WOULD come across as being boring. Like I said, she can still be virtuous, but still have a backstory to give her depth. It just calls for good writing.
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