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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 5, 2014 22:16:21 GMT
Is usual, for long lived characters, to change as they go from hand to hand. It's not so common, for short lived ones. In the span of less than eight years, Gwen's personality received several treatments, although there were big differences between artists, that's not the end of it, even if we were to just look at Romita's work, we'd see disparate takes on her behavior. Gwen was introduced as a beauty queen. Used to the attention of the opposite sex, Peter's apparent indifference was an affront she didn't accept in good spirits. These are from ASM #31.
Like usual at Marvel during the Silver Age, as a new romantic interest was introduced, Peter's relationship with Betty Brant was put to rest at end of the previous issue, and the final straw for her came at the conclusion of the Master Planner Saga, just before Peter would even notice Gwen. There was only a small afterthought, that never went anywhere, where Ditko apparently intended for Betty to find out about Peter's double life, but he let the title a few issues later and that was that.
It would merit its own thread, but the characters up to this point in publication, simply couldn't have sex outside marriage, which meant that only "safe" dating was allowed (Johnny/Dorrie, Peter/Betty, Ben/Alcia); adults had to marry (Reed/Sue), have obstacles that would prevent them from even dating (Don/Jane, Matt/Karen, Tony/Pepper, Bruce/Betty, Namor/Dorma, Scott/Jean) or be written out of the MU altogether (Hank/Janet) unless they were engaged. In that context, Peter couldn't be interested in two girls at once.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 10:54:17 GMT
Hey ozy this would be helpful especially for me to understand what made gwen tick, since i have a few fanfics ideas, Gwen is a semi-major character in them and i haven't read the early issues yet but the more i think about it the more i'm thinking i shoudl maybe get the marvel masterworks.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 6, 2014 10:57:06 GMT
Glad to be of service.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 11:01:56 GMT
I'm thinking of posting a thread which i can get feedback (depending on what i'm using) you ok with that, for example i'm thinking one based on the aftermath of the ASM2 would be in the movie thread sound good or do you want to keep fanfiction out of it.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 6, 2014 11:30:37 GMT
If its movie related, I don't see any problem with such a thread, in that board. Go ahead!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 13:38:11 GMT
The second time she appeared, in ASM #34, we get basically a repeat of the debut. She's getting male attention, enjoying every minute of it, when Peter enters the scene. She, and the gang led by Harry, mock him again and Gwen gets a case of bad conscience afterwards (again). The only difference is that, this time, Peter finally notices her. On the visual side of things, Ditko's rendering of the character is more polished and detailed, not that his initial rendition of the character wasn't up to par with Kirby's best.
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 13:45:35 GMT
Is usual, for long lived characters, to change as they go from hand to hand. It's not so common, for short lived ones. In the span of less than eight years, Gwen's personality received several treatments, even though Stan Lee was the writer for the majority of her stories. The first explanation usually given for this, was the big differences between the artists, but as we'll see, even if we were to just look at Romita's interpretation, there're disparate takes on her behavior. At the beginning, Gwen was presented as an assertive, sophisticated, intelligent girl. Used to the attention of the opposite sex, Peter's indifference was an affront she didn't accept in good spirits. This is from the very first issue in which she appears. It should be noted, by those who still contend her status as the chosen one, that by the end of the previous issue, Peter's relationship with Betty Brant had ended. The road was clear for her now, and what ensued for the next couple of years, was a game of attraction and insecurities, further complicated by the inclusion of a third party, towards the middle of the game. I'll be showing here the landmarks of their relationship, and try to isolate the common traits that really constituted Gwen's essence. That attraction and insecurities game is what made Peter and Gwen's relationship so appealing. It's something we all go through so we can relate! Despite Stan's somewhat adolescent writing it still hit home with a generation of teenage boys. It would have been interesting to see how Ditko would have affected their relationship. It would probably have been more comedic, but that could also have made the relationship more endearing. Also near the end of his run we discovered just what a damn good artist he really was. His artwork in #33 especially showed what he could do when he wanted to. Of course Romita's romance comic background came along at just the right time to cultivate Peter and Gwen's relationship. One thing I would have liked to have seen more of was the collaborative efforts of Romita and John Buscema. I found Gwen to be most attractive in this short period. Gil Kane of course was perfect for #90. Capt. Stacy's death really choked me up!
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 13:48:01 GMT
The second time she appeared, in ASM #34, we get basically a repeat of the debut. She's getting male attention, enjoying every minute of it, when Peter enters the scene. She, and the gang led by Harry, mock him again and Gwen gets a case of bad conscience afterwards (again). The only difference is that, this time, Peter finally notices her. The mutual game of hopes and doubts, is on. On the visual side of things, Ditko's rendering of the character is more polished and detailed. Yep even Ditko couldn't help but make Gwen attractive even in his more adolescent style!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 14:02:55 GMT
My sentiments exactly, their relationship flourished in an era gone by. Older readers can relate, but newer ones would be like, what are they doing, exactly? This is one of the many reasons why I don't see new audiences accepting Gwen, or the way they behaved around each other. That's by I don't picture her back, in the present.
A little bit off-topic, but I'm of the opinion that Ditko's art started to shine after the overload of work the first Annual meant to him. I get a lot of thrashing, wherever I publish my rating graphs, but Ditko didn't really apply himself to the job, at the start.
Don't run so fast, bro. I'll get to Buscema, Kane, Romita, Andru… all in due time.
Yes, she also was beautiful, as drawn by Ditko, but there's no sweetness there. Which is what I came to love about the character.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 8, 2014 11:06:35 GMT
In ASM #36, a new doubt is introduced in the game, one which would reemerge later, when they were already an item. Until now we had the typical doubts of availability, Peter thought she was out of reach because he was a pariah at the time, Gwen thought he was either more interested in test tubes, or simply ignored her. Now, she would come to also doubt his manhood. In the course of a space exhibit, the Looter enters the scene, and as Peter makes his exit, Gwen sees him running off, and mistakes his actions for cowardice. Lost in the science, as usual, unaware that she was even there, he becomes puzzled at her reaction later. This will lead to a change of pace in the next issue. BTW, Gwen's attendance (alone) to a science exhibit, clearly dispels any doubts about her goals at college. There's some notions that she could be a MRS Degree. In this scene, from ASM #37, Peter confronts Gwen about her behavior from last issue, the result isn't as disastrous as it could've, because Flash's intervention, casts Peter's personality in a different light than that of a coward. Doubts upon doubts. As for Ditko's latest portrayal of the character, and the point where Romita would pick it from... rather uneventful, both from the story and graphical design point of view. ASM #38:
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Post by dav on Jun 8, 2014 15:44:28 GMT
My sentiments exactly, their relationship flourished in an era gone by. Older readers can relate, but newer ones would be like, what are they doing, exactly? This is one of the many reasons why I don't see new audiences accepting Gwen, or the way they behaved around each other. That's by I don't picture her back, in the present. A little bit off-topic, but I'm of the opinion that Ditko's art started to shine after the overload of work the first Annual meant to him. I get a lot of thrashing, wherever I publish my rating graphs, but Ditko didn't really apply himself to the job, at the start. Don't run so fast, bro. I'll get to Buscema, Kane, Romita, Andru… all in due time. Yes, she also was beautiful, as drawn by Ditko, but there's no sweetness there. Which is what I came to love about the character. Actually from my experience, many of the dynamics of Gwen and Peter's relationship are still alive and well in the dating world of today! There's still the dance of showing interest but not TOO much interest, and I have had it happen many times where the same girl who wasn't interested in me earlier all of a sudden becomes interested in me when she sees me with another girl, just like Gwen and MJ! There are new factors in the dating game like sex and cohabitation and single parenthood but believe me the "dance" is still going on! I actually think Ditko drew the way he did because he was instructed to do it, to make the comic look more childish to appeal to younger readers. I know for a fact from reading about Romita that he intentionally tried to mimic Ditko's style at first to maintain a consistency in the comic. There was a definite difference in the fashions however. Ditko was still drawing peoples clothes as if they were from the 1940's, but Romita definitely modernized the fashions to the 60's styles. As for Gwen in the modern age, Personally, I don't see a problem. Her core character can still remain the same, you just have to give her more dimension and depth. In the 60's even the main characters were at best two-dimensional, but of course today there a much greater degree of sophistication. This is all you would have to do with Gwen. Granted, over the years ALL the characters have gone through a degree of "chameleonic" change so the same thing can be, in fact needs to be done with Gwen. In fact it's kind of ironic that MJ actually took on some of Gwen's traits as time went by to make her more compatible with Peter!! Suck THAT Conway!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 8, 2014 15:52:25 GMT
I was thinking about the way youngsters do the "dance" nowadays. We're a different breed. At the end of his Spider-Man tenure, even Ditko started dressing Peter in a more fashionable way, female characters maybe not so much. I'll get on, with Romita, shortly
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Post by dav on Jun 8, 2014 17:17:16 GMT
I was thinking about the way youngsters do the "dance" nowadays. We're a different breed. At the end of his Spider-Man tenure, even Ditko started dressing Peter in a more fashionable way, female characters maybe not so much. I'll get on, with Romita, shortly True, but the attraction and insecurities part is most definitely still alive and well. I can't speak about where you're from, but there is still a lot of prudishness here in Arizona. It still has a conservative, religiously driven repression among many women here. Hell, just last night I had an encounter with a woman who wants to "wait till marriage" and she was about 35! It cost me $28 in drinks to find this out!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 8, 2014 17:31:19 GMT
Prudishness? I don't even remember what that's like, I'd say I have to visit, to refresh my memory, but at those prices I wouldn't be getting refreshing of any other kind, I'm afraid.
And you were the one complaining about Gwen being not even two years younger in the other thread?!
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 7:49:54 GMT
Where did you say you lived, again? As for the two years younger, yeah it just doesn't sit right with me. One thing I CAN say is in our desire to make a new comic that would get away from the insanity of 616, using time platforms and such is kind of a step in the wrong direction!
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