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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 16, 2014 9:50:49 GMT
The issues between the game-changer Spider-Man No More and Peter's first "date" with Gwen, in ASM #53 were uneventful and/or strange. Nothing really happened with the character, just more getting used to "smiling Gwen", but not to a consistent look, as the headband got lost again. This was really a cat and mouse game for Romita at the time. The strange part comes with Marvel Super-Heroes #14, originally a fill-in issue that was never used, it was published the same month as ASM #60 hit the stands. It's pretty much impossible to fit this comic into the Spider-Man continuity properly. It was probably drawn around the time of ASM #47, looking at Gwen's hairstyle and considering that Peter already lived with Harry. The dialog, however, seems more in line with the events around May, 1968. And there's where we hit the problem, before issue 59, Peter was missing due to the events set in motion in ASM #53, with the Octopus saga. But after the Brainwasher story, they broke up. I don't like reading comics that interrupt other stories, which is why I place Marvel Super-Heroes #14 here, right before their first date. As you can see, Gwen is acting as being closer to Peter than she was before ASM #53, and Harry seems to be dating MJ, when we had only seen them alone once before. Considering that, out of all this dating, only Gwen and Peter's relationship was meaningful, I don't feel Harry's behavior to be totally out of context. And Gwen's attitude could be seen as an evolution, in line with the changes glimpsed in ASM #50, which would lead to next issue.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 17, 2014 11:03:19 GMT
And we reach ASM #53, the first date, a rather spur of the moment thing. Quoting Bertone: I'm not one to read into someone's work, that which wasn't there in the first place, but I must admit that Conway's retcon of Prof. Warren, is going to alter the way we interpret his earlier appearances. Even if trying to ignore the original Clone Saga revelations, is difficult not to see him acting weird in this issue. The "date" is mostly dull, not surprising because they're being chaperoned, but Peter's momentarily disappearance brings about another change in Gwen. First, she loses her sempiternal smile, and second, she gets "physical" with Peter. The flirtatious character we had seen so far, was no stranger to the occasional human contact with the opposite sex, but she had always kept her distance with him, until now. The situation doesn't develop further in this issue, but it will be the foundation for the events that will lead to a remake, in issue 59.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 17, 2014 20:41:58 GMT
The next two issues, develop her character in the context of a (now) open war with MJ. A Mary Jane who, curiously enough, remembers she was supposed to be dating Peter, at the exact same moment Gwen decides to make her move. This is a common behavior, of course, but I have trouble picturing the redhead falling for that. The reverse role, which she would play in abundance later on in the series, suited her better. There was a very similar scene in the previous issue, but I chose this one. I expect some readers to interpret Gwen's closing words, as proof of MJ's hidden personality, but I only see here a remark, about the quips they had been exchanging recently.
Edit: I forgot to mention the new fringe style (the final one), very similar to MJ's. So similar, in fact, that they would completely change Mary Jane's hairstyle later on, for a brief period of time.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 18, 2014 9:21:59 GMT
The introduction of Captain Stacy took place in ASM #56, this was instrumental in the final stages of Gwen's character definition. In the midst of Peter's disappearance, she goes to May's house, where she puts and end to all the silliness with MJ. This is a character capable of being both fun and serious. Then she tries to help, by calling her dad, who was at City Hall. This two panels give some depth to her character, other than being privy to her thoughts on the matter, the reader is now given information, as to how his closest family is also aware of her affections.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 18, 2014 22:06:35 GMT
First of all, Romita & Demeo achieve the worst look for Gwen so far. They did a nice job a couple of issues before, so the question isn't one of artistic incompatibility. Most probably, Don Heck is at fault here. With this short appearance, we get two new topics. - Gwen bursting into tears, something that would become a trademark of the character under Romita's tenure.
- Spider-Man popping up in her life. Something that diminishes the verisimilitude of civilian characters, but which was done quite often nonetheless.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 19, 2014 10:31:51 GMT
With Peter coming back in ASM #59, Spider-Man takes a backseat to the rest of the cast. I'll cut it to the chase more than usually, then. Remember when I said, back in their first "date", how that panel would get a remake? Well, here it is. This time she throws herself at him, even in a less concealed way, and in front of her father. That takes the "you should meet my father" out of the way, as well as makes things really easy for Peter. He never had the courage, or the conviction, to really ask her out, and now he doesn't even need to. The Peter Parker from the Ditko era was more decisive, when he made his move towards Betty (back in #7), he seemed less insecure. With Romita, is the girls who come out as being more forward, times were A-Changin'. At the very same time they start their relationship, the final version of the headband appears. No more knotty ones, it will still go away occasionally, or change color, but size and placement are finally agreed upon. This is her classic look. This other panel presents the new status quo, as being accepted by everyone involved. Wasn't Harry dating Gwen? MJ dating Peter? No one could tell, by reading this issue.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 19, 2014 22:23:09 GMT
Some Internet resources about Gwen, mentioned in another thread, state that Early stages for sure, not deep? In the sense that they couldn't know each other very well, probably. But to see this as a sign of weakness in the relationship, is a mistake. The chemicals the brain produces, are a very powerful drug, and they can compel people to believe things, like the ones said in the panels above. This situation, brings out another aspect of her personality, loyalty. Much as she may want to believe Peter, she can't refuse that which appears to be true, and acts accordingly. Bertone chalks her actions up to her being a daddy's girl, I disagree. While is obvious she had a very special relationship with her father, that's not what motivates her here. She will prove to be loyal to her friends too, in future episodes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 21:08:32 GMT
About Mary Jane, a brief commentary. I don't even remember, when was the first time I saw a thought balloon over her head. On the other hand, we had a direct line into Gwen's thinking from day one. Or he was just treating her like every other supporting character who didn't get a though balloon, like Flash, Harry, Liz, Ned Leeds, Robbie Robertson, Aunt May....
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Post by Ozymandias on Jul 2, 2014 9:43:48 GMT
About Mary Jane, a brief commentary. I don't even remember, when was the first time I saw a thought balloon over her head. On the other hand, we had a direct line into Gwen's thinking from day one. Or he was just treating her like every other supporting character who didn't get a though balloon, like Flash, Harry, Liz, Ned Leeds, Robbie Robertson, Aunt May.... This post comes from the thread, at the CBR board, where I asked about the absence of thought balloons for MJ. So far, not much has come out of it, other than the confirmation that her first thought bubble was in ASM #62. Three years without a thought must mean something, I gave three options: - Leee didn't care about it. He designed MJ just to be a foil to Gwen.
- He thought it was better for her character, to be shrouded in mystery.
- He couldn't come up with text that would be coherent with her, as she had been stablished.
The fourth option, as expressed by RobertMacQuarrie1 above, is without basis, but merits attention. I also have said that "Probably all the characters, had their thoughts expressed trough thought bubbles, except maybe the most secondary ones", I didn't check, so I do it now: - Flash and Liz were just Peter's high school bully and his girl. Lee had no plans for her, and she was written off the book as soon as high school was finished. Flash was recycled and slowly evolved, but even in his original role, he did have thoughts. Both of them did, look no further than ASM#25, for example.
- Harry was also introduced to join the social crusade against Peter, but as soon as Lee devised a different role for him, he started to "think", in ASM #39.
- Ned Leeds was certainly a very secondary character. He didn't have much personality of his own. He was just a means to getting Betty out of the picture.
- Robertson came, to fill the hole left at the Bugle, by Foswell's demise. Leeds could've been fleshed out to step up and take this new role, but Lee chose to introduce a new character. Around the time Captain Stacy made the scene, he had his first thought bubble in ASM #64. It was part of Lee's plan to form the senior Spider-man "fan club".
- Aunt May had thoughts as far back as ASM #3.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 15, 2014 14:10:56 GMT
Amazing Spider-Man #61, more than any other comic before, leaves one thing clear, Stan Lee played with characters loosely. As much as I'm trying to put together a (somewhat) coherent personality for Gwen, plot twists get in the middle every now and then. In this issue we see a couple of big ones. In the scene above, we witness loyalty pushed to ridiculous levels. You could say this proves what I denied a few posts ago, that she was indeed a daddy's girl. I merely see poor characterization. Let's assume for a moment, that she was ready to endure being a fugitive, just to help her father, how was running away ever going to solve anything? She points that out, but proceeds anyway. How were they going to survive financially? What he really needed was medical attention, she knew there was something wrong with his mind. It was a decision that made absolutely no sense, except for the drama effect, Lee wanted to create. And here's the second one. Spider-Man saves the day, and Gwen regrets not having had the chance to thank him. This is the same masked man who (allegedly) kidnapped Peter not that long ago. The same person she would later blame for the death of his father; but now, due to Stan wanting to emphasize the irony, she admires him, at the same time she was in bad terms, with his alter ego.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 25, 2014 18:42:35 GMT
Issue 62 was just another bitter encounter, for the couple, while they were apart. Another failed attempt by Peter to explain without actually saying anything in his defense (almost as typical as the Parker luck). The scene would end with Gwen crying, something that was already becoming her trademark, although in this case, with good reason. All this would be hardly meritory of comment, except for the opening panel: Here we see Romita's most bitter take on the character. (Don Heck's finishing the art, must also have something to do with it). It reminds me of the early version of her, by Ditko. Something to note, for further reference.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 18:27:44 GMT
Two things to consider about ASM #42. Gwen decides to play the jealousy card, after failing at being nice. Even Flash notices her interest in Peter, but the guy is the biggest schmuck to ever walk the earth (616). This setup will be used as a story plot, to encourage Peter into dating Mary Jane for a while. Many MJ fans say she came before Gwen, because of this brief adventure (?), but even if she dated the main character earlier, it was only due to her being more forward and Gwen being "unavailable". About Mary Jane, a brief commentary. I don't even remember, when was the first time I saw a thought balloon over her head. On the other hand, we had a direct line into Gwen's thinking from day one. The other aspect to notice here, is an earlier version of the headband. This clothing accessory as been a trademark of the character, just not this model, which will be short-lived. Romita keeps drawing her in different ways, as if trying to define her. It will still take him more than a year, to get to the final draft. Some will see this as a bad sign, as a the markings of a clumsy developed character, what I see is a lot of work put into her creation. While MJ was defined in one panel, both appearance and behavior, Gwen took a lot of effort. Some people prefer that which is earned, others find it more desirable to just "hit the jackpot". Regarding longterm development vs instant success, I don't believe a labored over character to have any advantage over one that is immediately functional. After all, Peter himself is well established right from the beginning, with subsequent changes to his character being a natural evolution. Mary Jane went through the same process, having a personality established immediately and experiencing further development over the course of decades. Gwen obviously didn't have that advantage and in fact she had quite an obvious disadvantage. She was created by a man who was reaching a point of artistic burnout, she was defined to fit a certain archetype that MJ would eventually fill (the Veronica as opposed to the Betty) and her creator abandoned her after little development. But that doesn't make Gwen a bad or worse character, it just means Gwen needed more time to become good. The Hulk is one of my favorite characters and it took years of development to make him a good character.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 5, 2015 20:44:54 GMT
Regarding longterm development vs instant success, I don't believe a labored over character to have any advantage over one that is immediately functional. Gwen obviously didn't have that advantage and in fact she had quite an obvious disadvantage. She was created by a man who was reaching a point of artistic burnout, she was defined to fit a certain archetype that MJ would eventually fill (the Veronica as opposed to the Betty) and her creator abandoned her after little development. Not per se, but what I'm trying to show in this thread, is Gwen's complicated "nature", as a result of the changes introduced to her character. MJ on the other hand, was pretty straightforward, as established by its creative team. The inheritance left by Ditko, was dead weight, in regard to Gwen, but more graphically so than literary. It took Romita a lot of time, to transition her appearance towards something that would fall into his comfort zone. This was exacerbated, by the need to differentiate Gwen and MJ, whom I suspect Romita was more comfortable with.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 14, 2015 18:56:57 GMT
That shot is a great example of how subtle yet powerful the changes to Gwen's design were. Here is Gwen of #47 next to Gwen of #48 in identical poses: The Old Gwen has a prominent widow's peak, very silky hair and narrow cat-like eyes. The New Gwen has bangs covering her widow's peak, softer bouncy hair and wider eyes. John just had to add a few new touches to the Ditko model and there she is. The changes introduced to her appearance, were dictated by the intended shift in her behavior. That said, I would've liked to see them take on the challenge, of matching the developed personality, with her early looks. If not for anything else, just because she was so beautiful.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 16, 2015 10:24:56 GMT
The changes introduced to her appearance, were dictated by the intended shift in her behavior. That said, I would've liked to see them take on the challenge, of matching the developed personality, with her early looks. If not for anything else, just because she was so beautiful. I think it's kind of interesting that her change in personality is marked by a change in appearance because the same thing applies to Peter. The visual change from old Gwen to new Gwen is sudden but so was the change from Ditko Peter to Romita Peter. I think the ultimate point we can take from this is that growing up and going to college changes people. When Peter arrived on campus he wasn't very social and he wasn't particularly friendly. Part of that was due to his other life but it was also because he was coming out of a very hostile school. Likewise, Gwen was a, a pageant queen and the #1 girl at her high school and as a result was a bit of an alpha bitch. In the months they've been at school both of these characters have grown. Peter has developed into a well adjusted young man while Gwen has softened quite a bit. In fact we could even assume that these changes were caused by the introduction of Peter and Mary Jane into her life: Peter proving that she can't just be glamorous and expect a guy to eat out of her hand and MJ showing that there are other gorgeous girls out there and simply being gorgeous isn't enough. Since Gwen's thoughts were closed off to us we have no way of knowing what exactly was going through her mind but these changes read surprisingly organically as character development rather than as Stan and John grasping for a new personality. I completely agree on the development angle. Even though early Gwen is quite different from the classic one, there are forces at work within the story, that could explain such a change in behavior, personality evolution even. It may sound corny, but I think the main factor in the character shifting to a softer version, is simply love. In the long term, this wouldn't have worked as an explanation, because it's known that the chemical changes in the brain don't last, but from this point in the story, to ASM #121, not much Marvel Time elapsed. A friend of mine, who was quite into psychoanalysis, once told me that people of the opposite sex, become much more attractive, when we see them with a partner. This could be the case with the Peter-MJ-Gwen triangle, if not for the fact that he was attractive to her, prior to MJ's irruption. In fact, as I said before, even when Gwen noticed she had his undivided attention, she still punished him a little bit more. In the end, she just tired of the game and made it really easy for Peter, realizing he was too shy to make a definitive move.
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