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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2014 19:24:52 GMT
I'm gettin' better at this separating quotes stuff, huh!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2014 19:53:09 GMT
Yes, I was going to tell you that, I still don't like to see the same panels twice, in the same page.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2014 20:28:07 GMT
Actually MJ was introduced as a mystery character back in #25. She only came out of the shadows in #36. Maybe this was an early attempt by Stan to introduce a love of Peter's life, but he changed his mind and instead used this mystery character as a foil for Gwen, since Gwen clearly needed a lesson in humility as she was originally written! I don't see her anywhere, in #36. In any case, a couple of headless cameos aren't enough for Marvel either. The creators of the character, according to their wikia, are Stan and John. You're assuming she even HAD a thought before #122!  Actually, before she revealed she knew Peter's secret identity, there are several thought balloons (even before #122) that show she CLEARLY didn't know Peter's identity! Ah, the liberties the writers take!  I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. As for her not knowing about the secret identity, as soon as ASM #43, page 10, panel 4, she says: "Petey better get back before he misses all the fun!". This, while watching Spider-Man in action. It was suggested in a later mag that she changed her hair style to match MJ's, in order to vie for Peter's attention! She didn't have the head band during the beginnings of the new hairstyle. Maybe she lost herself a little bit due to MJ, thought that Peter found the new style attractive, but at the same time she reverted back to the headband to restore her own individuality! We'll get to that. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2014 20:59:41 GMT
ASM #43 has a cameo appearance, in which Gwen remarks what she values about the lead, his academic prowess. Those who really don't like the character, point to this interest as part of her marriage hunter skills, but I think she was just looking for someone with shared goals (science). Like Liz, she's attracted to Peter's brain, but while the high school blonde saw in him something different, Gwen senses something akin.  In ASM #44, Gwen tries yet once more, to establish some connection with Peter, offering to help him with his missed lab work. The Silver Spoon proves not to be the ideal place for such activities.   Once MJ enters the scene, Gwen realizes her game hasn't turned out quite like she hoped. While she frequents Flash and Harry's company, either to increase her ego, or to use them against Peter, MJ's presence doesn't seem like a ploy on his part. As a consequence of Gwen's frustration, Flash gets a verbal beating again.  And finally, another panel showing Gwen's concern for Peter's academic future, or is it jealousy? Probably both.  |
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2014 21:32:40 GMT
Yes, I was going to tell you that, I still don't like to see the same panels twice, in the same page. I will work on that! It DOES take up a lot of space! |
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2014 21:47:12 GMT
In the previous page, just before MJ is introduced to the gang, Gwen tries yet once more, to establish some connection with Peter, offering to help him with his missed lab work. The Silver Spoon proves not to be the ideal place for such activities. The Silver Spoon, a metaphor for Gwen's upbringing? Now, the kitty's claws come out! Like I said before, this aspect of dating is still alive and well in today's world! I have experienced this VERY recently!
With respect to MJ, I can see the appeal. Even in today's more sophisticated world I can see MJ as a great f**k buddy! Hot, sexy ,fun to be around, nothing serious, but also nothing that (at least on the surface) could develop into anything serious. Not really Peter's type!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2014 21:55:41 GMT
I have a hard time imagining Stan being allegorical, but who knows?
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2014 22:09:42 GMT
I don't see her anywhere, in #36. In any case, a couple of headless cameos aren't enough for Marvel either. The creators of the character, according to their wikia, are Stan and John. Technically yes, but if you go back, to #25 she is shown as a faceless person who Aunt May wanted to introduce to Peter, by the name of Mary Jane Watson, and even though she was dressed in Ditko's 1940's clothes, he STILL gave her a hell of a body! There were a couple of other attempts to introduce her to Peter, and then, #36, last frame, "Face it, Tiger! You just hit the jackpot!" Yep, demonstrating her obliviousness to Peter's secret. It could also be interpreted as her desire to KEEP his secret. That's why I focused on the thought balloons, because in those the person would have no reason to be deceptive. I know, I'm getting ahead of myself again! Sorry about that! |
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2014 22:14:22 GMT
I have a hard time imagining Stan being allegorical, but who knows? Just a possibility! |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 12, 2014 5:04:27 GMT
Technically yes, but if you go back, to #25 she is shown as a faceless person who Aunt May wanted to introduce to Peter, by the name of Mary Jane Watson, and even though she was dressed in Ditko's 1940's clothes, he STILL gave her a hell of a body! There were a couple of other attempts to introduce her to Peter, and then, #36, last frame, "Face it, Tiger! You just hit the jackpot!" Yep, demonstrating her obliviousness to Peter's secret. It could also be interpreted as her desire to KEEP his secret. That's why I focused on the thought balloons, because in those the person would have no reason to be deceptive. I remember just another attempt, in #38. And you mean ASM #42, for that final panel. Keeping it secret from whom? She doesn't know Fosswell is behind her. |
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Post by dav on Jun 12, 2014 9:04:53 GMT
Technically yes, but if you go back, to #25 she is shown as a faceless person who Aunt May wanted to introduce to Peter, by the name of Mary Jane Watson, and even though she was dressed in Ditko's 1940's clothes, he STILL gave her a hell of a body! There were a couple of other attempts to introduce her to Peter, and then, #36, last frame, "Face it, Tiger! You just hit the jackpot!" Yep, demonstrating her obliviousness to Peter's secret. It could also be interpreted as her desire to KEEP his secret. That's why I focused on the thought balloons, because in those the person would have no reason to be deceptive. I remember just another attempt, in #38. And you mean ASM #42, for that final panel. Keeping it secret from whom? She doesn't know Fosswell is behind her. You're absolutely right about #42. My apologies, I don't know where I got that from, Romita wasn't even doing the art in #36! Chalk it up to issue number dyslexia!
I was actually thinking she might have been saying it for the sake of the crowd IF she truly knew his secret. Either way, the thought balloons reveal the person's true thinking, so on the rare occasion MJ's thoughts ARE revealed, there is no ambiguity that she didn't know his identity, despite what the writer's wrote later.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 12, 2014 12:50:28 GMT
Gwen doesn't appear in ASM #45, but Harry invites Peter to Gwen's party. This reveals the fact that his relationship with Gwen isn't romantic in nature, or at least, he's known her long enough to have cleared up that possibility at this point. In this same issue, we see Harry alone, for the first time, with MJ. This levels the playing field. Neither Gwen, nor MJ are really committed.  Also, there's this panel, where what has been dubbed the "Betty and Veronica" era, could be said to start. Lee himself couldn't say more clearly, what MJ's character was introduced for. And we get to the next issue; Peter arrives with MJ but, are they still dating? Gwen asks Harry to join her, but I don't think much has to be read into this, either. There's even who considers Flash to be Gwen's partner at the time. I just don't see that. The way I read it, this was open season for everybody.   The first version of the headband is gone, and she is shown to be nothing of a wall-flower. Curiously, this Peter gets, when it wasn't as evident as other things he had been missing. More than anything, it looks like Stan's way of introducing this new aspect of her personality without wanting to admit it was new. I'm not saying it contradicts the character previously depicted, but maybe Stan was afraid that readers could think so. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 13, 2014 9:54:02 GMT
ASM #47. A lot of Gwen stuff in this issue, quite a bit of MJ too. More often than not, the dancing competition between the two characters becomes the topic of conversation, but I prefer the quiet sequences, where the characters show more about themselves. Case in point:   As clear a proof as I could find of Gwen never having dated Flash. I interpret Harry's words as an informed opinion. He's clearly joking about himself, but the way I see it, those words are meant for Peter, who takes the cue. This is the first genuine compliment he's made of her, and Gwen takes this opportunity for revenge. Another scene I couldn't pass up, is the one where ASM turned into a fashion model magazine.  BTW, they've recently rescued the outfit for a new cover.
And if there's someone still having doubts, about who's first and who's second choice, here it becomes crystal-clear:    Finally, the action, which is quite irrelevant for the purposes of this thread.    |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 13, 2014 20:22:10 GMT
Not much happened before issue 50. The headband keeps coming and going, and she finally gets bangs (or fringe, depending on where you live). Not exactly the same style as MJ's yet, but something Lee felt the need to explain in-story (ASM #48). Kind of a preemptive strike. It's said that MJ was stealing Gwen's thunder with the audience, I don't know if that's true, but the fact is they kept introducing changes to her appearance, as well as her personality. This fine-tuning process would still go on for quite a while.  |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2014 14:54:54 GMT
There are three separate appearances in ASM #50. The first one, shows us Gwen accepting Peter's excuses, for refusing yet another invitation. The time for games is over, only the more straightforward aspects of courtship remain. From Peter's point of view, it had been clear for a few issues, what she had come to represent. But for Gwen, Peter had always been little more than a mystery, a brilliant classmate to who she felt attracted and admired, even if the facts sometimes pointed in the opposite direction. In this issue we see how she finally starts to melt. The stage is almost ready, all that's necessary now is some excuse, and it will arrive before long (twice, actually).   What be have here is the smilie version of Gwen. Did someone think MJ was the only one who could smile? Wrong, she shows teeth in every panel! Other than that, she looks different from what we saw in the past two sequences depicted in this thread. Romita keeps searching. |
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Actually, before she revealed she knew Peter's secret identity, there are several thought balloons (even before #122) that show she CLEARLY didn't know Peter's identity! Ah, the liberties the writers take! 