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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 7:13:13 GMT
I already outlined it to you almost at the beginning of the thread. On page 2: Simply by saying that Norman tried to seduce Gwen and failed, so he made it all up to mess with Peter. He forged the letter, used genetic material to create the babies, brainwashed MJ to think she remembered what had never happened, whatever. What, in that simple plot, needs elaborating? Unless you're wondering about how that helps, in bringing her back. It doesn't, that's just the non-intrusive, Sins Past retcon. This idea does work, but it could use a little drama to give it some teeth. As for bringing Gwen back, we would have to go back to the drawing board for that.
IMHO I am more partial to the other retcon idea. Yes it is messy, but not any more messy that Sins Past was. Also, (IMHO) Sins Past has been engrained in Spidey canon. It was a complicated story that IMHO would warrant a complicated retcon. I found it quite exciting finding a way to retcon Sins Past in the other method, And I think readers might appreciate a "how are they gonna get out of THIS mess!" storyline. I imagine, despite the abhorrent effect on Gwen's character, the readers found it intriguing how JMS was able unfold such a complicated story despite the liberties taken in the timeline (I know I did) and I think they might ALSO appreciate this same type of story in undoing Sins Past (again, I know I would.) Also I find Tiger's story idea with the Avengers and stuff definitely shock-worthy and suspenseful and keeping with the more sophisticated modern stories. But that's just me!
Also considering all the hell that came out of Sins Past, to have Norman simply say "Oops, I lied," is WAY too anticlimactic.
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 14:44:27 GMT
Very interesting article! It's also nice to know that someone else feels the same way we do regarding all this stuff, like Norman coming back etc. I read the first 1/3 and skimmed the rest but his assessment is pretty much in line with how I saw it as well.
I do intend on reading the rest later today!
This article is a great template for piecing together a Sins Past retcon. His analysis and "explanations," for lack of a better word, make great sense, and since Marvel endorsed it, we could use this for guidelines in assembling this retcon.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 14:53:47 GMT
The funny thing is that, where it fails, is in the Sins Past storyline. The original continuity itself is well detailed, but it gives me the impression he got drowned in the old material, and forgot the story he was trying to "fit" had its own timeline for the events. I don't see how it can help with anything.
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 17:26:56 GMT
The funny thing is that, where it fails, is in the Sins Past storyline. The original continuity itself is well detailed, but it gives me the impression he got drowned in the old material, and forgot the story he was trying to "fit" had its own timeline for the events. I don't see how it can help with anything. Well, It's unrealistic to remain faithful to Sins Past and to remain faithful to the original storyline. Sins Past distorted the original storyline so in order to restore SOME integrity to the original story line AND do away with Sins Past there will have to be some compromises. So we can either leave Sins Past as canon and bring back Gwen with this tarnished image as well as accept the distortions to the original storyline, OR we can modify Sins Past in order to do away with it, restore some integrity to the original storyline AND restore Gwen's tarnished image. The latter is the lesser of two evils.
To retcon Sins Past as just a lie creates it's own problems in continuity. There are continuity issues with the Clone Saga as well as with Norman's actions after he was brought back, as well as a whole host of other things that I may not be aware of due to my sporadic reading of the comics. Also I'm quite fond of how the story ideas that Tiger has, will fit into the modern era and give the franchise a lot to work with. With all due respect, the lie scenario, at least to me, deflates a lot of the momentum and excitement that has been built within the franchise. This is where our preferences diverge. I'm sorry, but I'm really more partial to Gwen returning in the modern day and having a place in the 616 timeline. Although I would like to read the alternate timeline, to me it just still rings of a long term What If story. It would be nice to read (and might satisfy my need to see Peter and Gwen's story played out) but there is a lot of anticipation for me in the excitement of having her come back today. As shocking as #121 was, I think it would be just as shocking as well as exciting to see what modern writers could do with this storyline. I almost get a tingling sensation thinking about a Spidey comic entitled "The Day Gwen Stacy Returned!" THEN having their relationship develop all over again with modern issues and the more sophisticated writing. I will freely admit I DO want Gwen and Peter to have their relationship and I DO want a more positive tone to the comic, but the modern sophistication also appeals to me. A more mature Peter and a more mature Gwen falling in love all over again after all the hell they've gone through. Getting a chance to finally get it right after all this time after all this time, really appeals to me. I'm sorry if I don't feel exactly the way you do regarding bringing Gwen back.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 19:05:59 GMT
The funny thing is that, where it fails, is in the Sins Past storyline. The original continuity itself is well detailed, but it gives me the impression he got drowned in the old material, and forgot the story he was trying to "fit" had its own timeline for the events. I don't see how it can help with anything. Well, It's unrealistic to remain faithful to Sins Past and to remain faithful to the original storyline. Sins Past distorted the original storyline so in order to restore SOME integrity to the original story line AND do away with Sins Past there will have to be some compromises. So we can either leave Sins Past as canon and bring back Gwen with this tarnished image as well as accept the distortions to the original storyline, OR we can modify Sins Past in order to do away with it, restore some integrity to the original storyline AND restore Gwen's tarnished image. The latter is the lesser of two evils.
To retcon Sins Past as just a lie creates it's own problems in continuity. There are continuity issues with the Clone Saga as well as with Norman's actions after he was brought back, as well as a whole host of other things that I may not be aware of due to my sporadic reading of the comics. Also I'm quite fond of how the story ideas that Tiger has, will fit into the modern era and give the franchise a lot to work with. With all due respect, the lie scenario, at least to me, deflates a lot of the momentum and excitement that has been built within the franchise. This is where our preferences diverge. I'm sorry, but I'm really more partial to Gwen returning in the modern day and having a place in the 616 timeline. Although I would like to read the alternate timeline, to me it just still rings of a long term What If story. It would be nice to read (and might satisfy my need to see Peter and Gwen's story played out) but there is a lot of anticipation for me in the excitement of having her come back today. As shocking as #121 was, I think it would be just as shocking as well as exciting to see what modern writers could do with this storyline. I almost get a tingling sensation thinking about a Spidey comic entitled "The Day Gwen Stacy Returned!" THEN having their relationship develop all over again with modern issues and the more sophisticated writing. I will freely admit I DO want Gwen and Peter to have their relationship and I DO want a more positive tone to the comic, but the modern sophistication also appeals to me. A more mature Peter and a more mature Gwen falling in love all over again after all the hell they've gone through. Getting a chance to finally get it right after all this time after all this time, really appeals to me. I'm sorry if I don't feel exactly the way you do regarding bringing Gwen back.
I was talking about the article linked a few posts ago. I didn't read there, that he wanted to do away with Sins Past, he was just trying to make it fit because he found it to be fun. And even if he had been able to do it, which is impossible because SP is a mess, I don't see how that would help to write it off. So there could be continuity quirks with The Clone Saga (TCS) when confronted with a SP retcon, so what? You're the one advocating for flexibility. I like things in perfect order, which is why I don't give any credit to SP in the first place, but if I have to bend the rules of another lie like TCS, to get rid of SP, I have no problem with that. Again you side with the worse story, trying to be extra meticulous with its timeline, while you don't have the same scruples when it comes to respect the original work. Could all the things that are proposed in that article, have happened without contradicting the original work? Maybe not the letter, but the spirit? Certainly.Why don't we say that Norman knew about how to create clones from the beginning and, as soon as he discovered about Peter, he cloned his Aunt and all his friends? We could say that in ASM #39, between panels 4 and 5, page 15, there's a time lapse big enough for him to carry this out. All this time, since then, May, Flash, Robbie, Gwen, Betty… all of them were clones. It doesn't matter if those panels seem to be contiguous, there COULD be a gap, and it would even explain why the GG was no longer carrying the shotgun mike in his had! Wham! Finally, you have a lot more confidence in current Spidey writers than I do, and I made sure not to leave anything out of my reading list. You don't have to apologize about wanting something different from me, but you should be careful what you wish for, I'm not entirely sure you've contemplated the options you have, or the consequences of your current choice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 8:31:16 GMT
Well theres the Spider-Gwen, she could get stranded in the 616 univerise, that would be a Gwen and its even better cause you get the heroine route as well.
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 8:35:30 GMT
Well, It's unrealistic to remain faithful to Sins Past and to remain faithful to the original storyline. Sins Past distorted the original storyline so in order to restore SOME integrity to the original story line AND do away with Sins Past there will have to be some compromises. So we can either leave Sins Past as canon and bring back Gwen with this tarnished image as well as accept the distortions to the original storyline, OR we can modify Sins Past in order to do away with it, restore some integrity to the original storyline AND restore Gwen's tarnished image. The latter is the lesser of two evils.
To retcon Sins Past as just a lie creates it's own problems in continuity. There are continuity issues with the Clone Saga as well as with Norman's actions after he was brought back, as well as a whole host of other things that I may not be aware of due to my sporadic reading of the comics. Also I'm quite fond of how the story ideas that Tiger has, will fit into the modern era and give the franchise a lot to work with. With all due respect, the lie scenario, at least to me, deflates a lot of the momentum and excitement that has been built within the franchise. This is where our preferences diverge. I'm sorry, but I'm really more partial to Gwen returning in the modern day and having a place in the 616 timeline. Although I would like to read the alternate timeline, to me it just still rings of a long term What If story. It would be nice to read (and might satisfy my need to see Peter and Gwen's story played out) but there is a lot of anticipation for me in the excitement of having her come back today. As shocking as #121 was, I think it would be just as shocking as well as exciting to see what modern writers could do with this storyline. I almost get a tingling sensation thinking about a Spidey comic entitled "The Day Gwen Stacy Returned!" THEN having their relationship develop all over again with modern issues and the more sophisticated writing. I will freely admit I DO want Gwen and Peter to have their relationship and I DO want a more positive tone to the comic, but the modern sophistication also appeals to me. A more mature Peter and a more mature Gwen falling in love all over again after all the hell they've gone through. Getting a chance to finally get it right after all this time after all this time, really appeals to me. I'm sorry if I don't feel exactly the way you do regarding bringing Gwen back.
I was talking about the article linked a few posts ago. I didn't read there, that he wanted to do away with Sins Past, he was just trying to make it fit because he found it to be fun. And even if he had been able to do it, which is impossible because SP is a mess, I don't see how that would help to write it off. So there could be continuity quirks with The Clone Saga (TCS) when confronted with a SP retcon, so what? You're the one advocating for flexibility. I like things in perfect order, which is why I don't give any credit to SP in the first place, but if I have to bend the rules of another lie like TCS, to get rid of SP, I have no problem with that. Again you side with the worse story, trying to be extra meticulous with its timeline, while you don't have the same scruples when it comes to respect the original work. Could all the things that are proposed in that article, have happened without contradicting the original work? Maybe not the letter, but the spirit? Certainly.Why don't we say that Norman knew about how to create clones from the beginning and, as soon as he discovered about Peter, he cloned his Aunt and all his friends? We could say that in ASM #39, between panels 4 and 5, page 15, there's a time lapse big enough for him to carry this out. All this time, since then, May, Flash, Robbie, Gwen, Betty… all of them were clones. It doesn't matter if those panels seem to be contiguous, there COULD be a gap, and it would even explain why the GG was no longer carrying the shotgun mike in his had! Wham! Finally, you have a lot more confidence in current Spidey writers than I do, and I made sure not to leave anything out of my reading list. You don't have to apologize about wanting something different from me, but you should be careful what you wish for, I'm not entirely sure you've contemplated the options you have, or the consequences of your current choice. With regards to my confidence in Spidey writers, It's not so much confidence in the writers as it is in confidence in US and our ideas! With Tiger's ideas I think the idea could be sold to Marvel and given the way we were able to clean up SP, Marvel might just be able to use it.
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 8:42:14 GMT
Well theres the Spider-Gwen, she could get stranded in the 616 univerise, that would be a Gwen and its even better cause you get the heroine route as well. My original plan for Gwen was to have her assist in his crimefighting. That would keep her an integral part of the Franchise and not cause the stagnation of the relationship that led to OMD, but I must confess this idea has teeth! It would make Gwen an even MORE integral part as well as give her and Peter an even closer relationship. Interesting...
My comic reading is limited. Where was Spider-Gwen in the MU?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 8:46:20 GMT
My original plan for Gwen was to have her assist in his crimefighting. That would keep her an integral part of the Franchise and not cause the stagnation of the relationship that led to OMD, but I must confess this idea has teeth! It would make Gwen an even MORE integral part as well as give her and Peter an even closer relationship. Interesting...
My comic reading is limited. Where was Spider-Gwen in the MU?
Its a chance but from what i have heard snowballs chance for two reasons a) Slott has said or more than one occasion that Peter will NOT be dating a fellow heroine b) He has said that Gwen will stay dead so i don't see him stranding a powered gwen unless they is massive plans for her. Spider-Gwen is making her first appearance in the leadup to SpiderVerse
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 8:59:00 GMT
My original plan for Gwen was to have her assist in his crimefighting. That would keep her an integral part of the Franchise and not cause the stagnation of the relationship that led to OMD, but I must confess this idea has teeth! It would make Gwen an even MORE integral part as well as give her and Peter an even closer relationship. Interesting...
My comic reading is limited. Where was Spider-Gwen in the MU?
Its a chance but from what i have heard snowballs chance for two reasons a) Slott has said or more than one occasion that Peter will NOT be dating a fellow heroine b) He has said that Gwen will stay dead so i don't see him stranding a powered gwen unless they is massive plans for her. Spider-Gwen is making her first appearance in the leadup to SpiderVerse These ideas don't have to be implemented right away. Slott will eventually leave (or he could be pressured into adopting these ideas) so let's just continue working on refining these various ideas and let the Comic Gods shine in our favor!
This is good, because we have several options now. Gwen being rescued by the Avengers with Sins Past intact, same plot but with SP retconned, and now Spider-Gwen. Let's keep on going!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 9:05:01 GMT
Heres a question maybe a crazy one what if it wasn't Norman but Gwen who did the switch, afraid for her life having seen what Norman was she left before he could kill her. She is drawn back to New York because of trouble that she hears that mentions her uncle/cousin. Good idea or bad idea its a thought that ran threw my head so i thought i would put it on the table. Another idea is that Gwen hired a actress so play her thinking Norman would come after her but she didn't tell the actress so Gwen returns.
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 12:11:05 GMT
Heres a question maybe a crazy one what if it wasn't Norman but Gwen who did the switch, afraid for her life having seen what Norman was she left before he could kill her. She is drawn back to New York because of trouble that she hears that mentions her uncle/cousin. Good idea or bad idea its a thought that ran threw my head so i thought i would put it on the table. Another idea is that Gwen hired a actress so play her thinking Norman would come after her but she didn't tell the actress so Gwen returns. Just to make sure I'm understanding this, Gwen switches herself out with a clone?
If I'm right in this understanding, Then Gwen would disappear for ten years and then comes back because of trouble with the family. Well, it's better than my amnesia plot device, but a couple issues. There weren't any clones at that time, and if Goblin was supposedly killed, why wouldn't she come back then?
As for the actress idea, dude, do we REALLY want to do a remake of the #400 scenario?
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 16:00:13 GMT
I'm gonna spend a little time compiling some of these ideas into a somewhat more cohesive grouping so that we can work with the different concepts a little more coherently. Give me a little time to work on this.
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 16:09:00 GMT
I went back and read ASM Annual #21,the Wedding Issue, and also went back and read Sins Past. Despite all the denials by MJ fans, Peter is still carrying a torch for Gwen! Even near his wedding day, he is still talking about Gwen and it really gives the impression that MJ is his second choice! Same thing in Sins Past. There are several moments where it is at least implied that MJ is not Peter's first choice. THAT'S why we need to bring Gwen back!
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2014 18:46:17 GMT
Gwen comes back with Sins Past.
With respect to Ozy's point of view about Warren, I think my idea of Gwen being revived in the morgue would work best. She is then sent to the bunker. Then we can take Tiger's idea from there (I will freely admit the amnesia plot device is overused!)
The Avengers find Gwen in the secret bunker and we carry forth from there.
Gwen comes back without Sins Past (SP)
The Twins are really the result of in vitro. Norman gets some eggs from Gwen and produces the Twins. (Sorry, Ozy, but Warren is the most plausible choice to do this next part.) Warren works with Norman and develops the foundation for clone technology. Norman says Warren's work is a failure and fires him. Norman takes the technology and makes a clone of Gwen. On her trip in 118-119, Norman has her kidnapped and replaced by the clone. Actually the clone can be a failure and would have deteriorated like Kaine did, but before that happens, Norman takes her up on the Bridge and she is killed.
Much later, Norman fabricates the affair with Gwen, implants a false memory in MJ, SP plays out but it is really an elaborate lie of Norman's.
THEN the Avengers find Gwen in the bunker and we carry forth.
Alternate Timeline 1973
Norman gets some eggs from Gwen, STARTS the in vitro work but is destroyed by Peter.
Gwen is rescued from the bridge, and Peter and Gwen have the life Conway didn't want to write.
To discuss this idea please go to the "Spider-Man 1973, an ongoing series about Peter and Gwen" thread.
Alternate Timeline 1984
The Beyonder duplicates Earth 616, then creates an alternate timeline in 1984. Within this timeline, Thomas Firehart takes von Doom's time machine back to the bridge in #121, replaces Gwen with a copy, and takes her forward to 1984. In comic time she would only be a couple of years younger than everyone else, and then Peter and Gwen can get back to having their relationship.
To discuss this idea please go to the "When to Bring Gwen Stacy back?" thread.
Spider-Gwen
Spider-Gwen comes over to 616 from SpiderVerse.
I don't know if there's a way to separate these ideas into sub-threads, but if not, we can merely sub-title our posts so that we can discuss these Ideas without confusion.
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