Post by dav on Jul 8, 2020 3:04:33 GMT
Considering our discussions about bringing Gwen back, and how we had an impasse regarding Sins Past, I have come up with a story idea that can satisfy both of us. Although I didn't like the idea of supernatural intervention with respect to bringing Gwen back, I have become more flexible. Since Marvel opened the door on this trope a little bit in #500 and a lot in One More Day, and considering all of the other bizarre things that have gone on in the franchise, having another supernatural intervention is no longer off limits. Before I start, I admit I haven't been a regular reader in a LONG time and some of the details of this idea might no longer be valid because of all the restructuring and new details that are in the recent comics. For example I know of the whole Superior Spider-man saga, but don't know much more than Doc Ock took over Peter's body for a while.
Here is the idea: First, have this story happen in a landmark issue (Like #800 or whatever the Vol. 2 equivalent would be or an annual or something) where a story of this scale would be appropriate. In the issues leading up to this, Peter reaches an extremely dark point in his life. He has suffered from several failures in his life, culminating with him being in a situation where he has to save Sarah Stacy's life and is unable to in a way eerily similar to how Gwen died. This ends up being the work of Mephisto, a way of breaking his will, in order to bring him to the point where Peter would turn to him again. The Watcher (or some other benevolent supernatural being) can't allow this, but he is limited in his powers to intervene. He can and HAS intervened in World-threatening events and he knows that something is coming up where Spider-man will play a critical role He can observe many different scenarios, but can only act by subtly influencing the choices a person makes. He has to find a small way of changing events so Mephisto can no longer have any power over Peter and so Peter can no longer be vulnerable to Mephisto. He finds the chance he needs not by influencing Peter's life, but by influencing Gwen's life. He influences her just enough so that she doesn't submit to Norman's seduction. All this would be consistent with the Watcher's previously established capabilities. This small change creates a snowball effect. Sins Past no longer happens, Norman is no longer motivated to kill Gwen so #121 doesn't happen, One More Day can't happen so Mephisto can't interfere in Peter's life and Peter and Gwen get to have the life they were supposed to have. Also it would retcon the whole Clone Saga!
I'm not a writer, but this concept can be built upon by a good writer who can put in the nuances that could make this idea work. Since One More Day opened the door to supernatural intervention, it seems only right to close the door in a similar fashion, but Mephisto doesn't have to be involved. Peter can just reach this dark place through non-supernatural means, but IMHO having Mephisto would justify the use of another supernatural being to intervene. Same thing with Sarah Stacy. She would be something of a foreshadowing of where this story would be going and why the Watcher would have to go back to prevent Sins Past.
I guess I kinda look at these details as important to the story in the same way that ASM #200 was done. Peter comes to this low point in his life, but the plot twists in such a way that he comes out in a better place than how he went into it, and the reader would still be shocked but in a good way.
“Hello Uatu, are enjoying sight of me breaking the will of this puny human? After all that's all you can do is observe”
“That's where you're wrong, treacherous one. You crossed the line. Your gluttony has driven you to cause ripples in the cosmic continuum that have disrupted the equilibrium. By your very nature you are oblivious to the repercussions of your actions, but my onmiscience allows me this insight. I may not be able to interfere in the mundane actions of lesser beings, but when the actions of one like you have an effect of such magnitude, I am empowered to intervene and you are not immune to consequences.”
“A watcher cannot destroy, nor can he neutralize the powers of a metaphysical being as myself”
“I can however compel you to take actions to restore the cosmic equilibrium, or to attentuate your powers so that you can never again abuse them to this extent. This will leave you unable to adequately obtain metaphysical sustenance and leave you so that you will be weakened and suffering unbearable deprivation for all eternity, a fate so unthinkable for an immortal being such as yourself that you will beg for a termination that will never come.
“I offer you an opportunity to save yourself from this fate. By the look on your monstrous face you have already learned the consequences of your gluttony so I know you won't overstep again, but you have done irreparable damage to the psyche of this man, that transcends any attempt to simply reverse your previous incursions in his life. He has a troubled soul, that allowed him to be vulnerable to you, but is also his greatest virtue. He plays an important part in the cosmic continuum. One where he cannot be vulnerable to you ever again. Those in the Cosmic Continuum have be able to subtley support him in his darkest times, but that could only be done in the present. Cosmic beings such as ourselves may influence past but in only the most subtle of ways. Even you cannot undo the actions you took in the past. It is up to you to make this subtle change to correct the damage you have done.”
“What can I possibly do to influence Spider-man in the past? His will is very strong and it took finding him in an extermely vulnerable state to be to manipulate him even then, stretched my powers to the limit.”
“In my observations I have come across an event that is in your abilities to influence. You would not have to even fight Spider-man's incredible will. All you will have to do is benevolently influence the will of a young woman,Gwen Stacy, who is in a slightly confused and in a vulverable state. All you have to do is provide her with a minsiscule amount of strength to resist the deplorable advances and manipulations of a predatorial human, Norman Osborn. Just a small whisper in her mind that this goes against her principles and would hurt the man she knows she truly loves. She spurns his advances and runs away. Even across time your powers would still be adequate to accomplish this.”
“But I will lose the love that I took in my deal with Spider-man by ending his marriage to his wife Mary Jane” I will be left weakened”
“Better to be weakened temporarily than permanently, Hellspawn! Now choose!”
Reluctantly Mephisto complies “It is done.”
“Although the concepts of mercy, gratitude and appreciation are foreign to you, consider yourself fortunate that I was the one who intervened in your sinister plans. Had it not been me, but one of the other more powerful and less merciful immortal beings in the Continuum, they may not have even offered you a choice. They would have just deconstructed you and left you as a pathetic husk of your former self without remorse. Know your limits Mephisto, or next time I will not be so charitable.”
Next scene:
MJ comes crashing through the door where Peter is still sleeping.
“Hey come on Web Head, you're gonna be late for your meeting! It's time to get up! You have stuff to do!” Slowly the head of a blonde woman appears from behind Peter.
“Thanks MJ, I'll get him up if I have to push him out of bed!”
Groggily, Peter moves and says,”Well, MJ makes a hell of an alarm clock!”
“And she's right too! Get your butt up...Web Head!” Gwen says sarcastically, then starts to giggle.
Equally sarcastically, Peter replies, “Yes Dear!”
Fin
Obviously, the next issue will explain that Peter and Gwen got married and MJ staying with them temporarily while she's on an acting job in NY. From there it can be explained what has or has not been retconned by this reboot, and the franchise gets a chance to refresh itself.
Here is the idea: First, have this story happen in a landmark issue (Like #800 or whatever the Vol. 2 equivalent would be or an annual or something) where a story of this scale would be appropriate. In the issues leading up to this, Peter reaches an extremely dark point in his life. He has suffered from several failures in his life, culminating with him being in a situation where he has to save Sarah Stacy's life and is unable to in a way eerily similar to how Gwen died. This ends up being the work of Mephisto, a way of breaking his will, in order to bring him to the point where Peter would turn to him again. The Watcher (or some other benevolent supernatural being) can't allow this, but he is limited in his powers to intervene. He can and HAS intervened in World-threatening events and he knows that something is coming up where Spider-man will play a critical role He can observe many different scenarios, but can only act by subtly influencing the choices a person makes. He has to find a small way of changing events so Mephisto can no longer have any power over Peter and so Peter can no longer be vulnerable to Mephisto. He finds the chance he needs not by influencing Peter's life, but by influencing Gwen's life. He influences her just enough so that she doesn't submit to Norman's seduction. All this would be consistent with the Watcher's previously established capabilities. This small change creates a snowball effect. Sins Past no longer happens, Norman is no longer motivated to kill Gwen so #121 doesn't happen, One More Day can't happen so Mephisto can't interfere in Peter's life and Peter and Gwen get to have the life they were supposed to have. Also it would retcon the whole Clone Saga!
I'm not a writer, but this concept can be built upon by a good writer who can put in the nuances that could make this idea work. Since One More Day opened the door to supernatural intervention, it seems only right to close the door in a similar fashion, but Mephisto doesn't have to be involved. Peter can just reach this dark place through non-supernatural means, but IMHO having Mephisto would justify the use of another supernatural being to intervene. Same thing with Sarah Stacy. She would be something of a foreshadowing of where this story would be going and why the Watcher would have to go back to prevent Sins Past.
I guess I kinda look at these details as important to the story in the same way that ASM #200 was done. Peter comes to this low point in his life, but the plot twists in such a way that he comes out in a better place than how he went into it, and the reader would still be shocked but in a good way.
“Hello Uatu, are enjoying sight of me breaking the will of this puny human? After all that's all you can do is observe”
“That's where you're wrong, treacherous one. You crossed the line. Your gluttony has driven you to cause ripples in the cosmic continuum that have disrupted the equilibrium. By your very nature you are oblivious to the repercussions of your actions, but my onmiscience allows me this insight. I may not be able to interfere in the mundane actions of lesser beings, but when the actions of one like you have an effect of such magnitude, I am empowered to intervene and you are not immune to consequences.”
“A watcher cannot destroy, nor can he neutralize the powers of a metaphysical being as myself”
“I can however compel you to take actions to restore the cosmic equilibrium, or to attentuate your powers so that you can never again abuse them to this extent. This will leave you unable to adequately obtain metaphysical sustenance and leave you so that you will be weakened and suffering unbearable deprivation for all eternity, a fate so unthinkable for an immortal being such as yourself that you will beg for a termination that will never come.
“I offer you an opportunity to save yourself from this fate. By the look on your monstrous face you have already learned the consequences of your gluttony so I know you won't overstep again, but you have done irreparable damage to the psyche of this man, that transcends any attempt to simply reverse your previous incursions in his life. He has a troubled soul, that allowed him to be vulnerable to you, but is also his greatest virtue. He plays an important part in the cosmic continuum. One where he cannot be vulnerable to you ever again. Those in the Cosmic Continuum have be able to subtley support him in his darkest times, but that could only be done in the present. Cosmic beings such as ourselves may influence past but in only the most subtle of ways. Even you cannot undo the actions you took in the past. It is up to you to make this subtle change to correct the damage you have done.”
“What can I possibly do to influence Spider-man in the past? His will is very strong and it took finding him in an extermely vulnerable state to be to manipulate him even then, stretched my powers to the limit.”
“In my observations I have come across an event that is in your abilities to influence. You would not have to even fight Spider-man's incredible will. All you will have to do is benevolently influence the will of a young woman,Gwen Stacy, who is in a slightly confused and in a vulverable state. All you have to do is provide her with a minsiscule amount of strength to resist the deplorable advances and manipulations of a predatorial human, Norman Osborn. Just a small whisper in her mind that this goes against her principles and would hurt the man she knows she truly loves. She spurns his advances and runs away. Even across time your powers would still be adequate to accomplish this.”
“But I will lose the love that I took in my deal with Spider-man by ending his marriage to his wife Mary Jane” I will be left weakened”
“Better to be weakened temporarily than permanently, Hellspawn! Now choose!”
Reluctantly Mephisto complies “It is done.”
“Although the concepts of mercy, gratitude and appreciation are foreign to you, consider yourself fortunate that I was the one who intervened in your sinister plans. Had it not been me, but one of the other more powerful and less merciful immortal beings in the Continuum, they may not have even offered you a choice. They would have just deconstructed you and left you as a pathetic husk of your former self without remorse. Know your limits Mephisto, or next time I will not be so charitable.”
Next scene:
MJ comes crashing through the door where Peter is still sleeping.
“Hey come on Web Head, you're gonna be late for your meeting! It's time to get up! You have stuff to do!” Slowly the head of a blonde woman appears from behind Peter.
“Thanks MJ, I'll get him up if I have to push him out of bed!”
Groggily, Peter moves and says,”Well, MJ makes a hell of an alarm clock!”
“And she's right too! Get your butt up...Web Head!” Gwen says sarcastically, then starts to giggle.
Equally sarcastically, Peter replies, “Yes Dear!”
Fin
Obviously, the next issue will explain that Peter and Gwen got married and MJ staying with them temporarily while she's on an acting job in NY. From there it can be explained what has or has not been retconned by this reboot, and the franchise gets a chance to refresh itself.
) She also has shown a pattern of forgiving him many times, so her forgiving him in Spidey canon would not be implausible.