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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 3, 2014 17:07:54 GMT
Give it to me raw, I can fix it.
And since we're still alone, around here, as long as you're answering the last post, there's no much need for quoting. Except when you only want to refer to specific parts of the message.
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Post by dav on Jun 3, 2014 17:48:21 GMT
Believe me, it isn't simple. There are many elements to isolate and clarify. 1 In 1983, the time platform was still in possession of the FF, and in 1987 it was in the hands of the west coast avengers, who had borrowed it from the FF. Would it be safe too assume they had it in-between? 2 We would need to get both a LDM for Norman to kidnap, as well as a brainless Gwen clone, to kill and leave for burial. 3 There's the matter of the autopsy. Fingerprints were taken from the body and it was said, at the end of ASM #145, that they matched those of her living clone. That's not possible, because "The pattern of our fingerprints is set up by our genes. Just like with other genes, though, the environment can change how we turn out. While you were growing inside of your mother, you touched the amniotic sac. When you touched it during weeks 6-13, the patterns of your fingerprints were changed." Do we bother to fix Conway's mistake? These are the tricky parts. The rest is rather straightforward. As for the duplication of the entire multiverse, not the creation of "this alternate universe", there is as much to explain about it, as when we saw The Beyonder destroying an entire galaxy in the blink of an eye. He was basically God, and could do as he pleased. We're only interested in earth-616, but the fact is that he came from beyond, a place outside the multiverse, so it stands to "reason" that all of it, as a whole, would be the same to him. So we get a copy of every earth, alternate dimension, pocket universe… the works. As for his reasons for doing it, you can say it was a reflex, an afterthought, or you could argue that it isn't the place of men to question God's actions. The thing is, this is when the MU started to goo wrong. Such a being has no place in it, and if the only way to get rid of him and his legacy, is trough his own actions, so be it.
I'm afraid to say that I'm confused.
First with the Beyonder and the year 1984. There were a lot of things that happened before 1984 that still need to be accounted for. Sins Past, although WRITTEN later took place around Issue #62. Does the Beyonder correct that in this alternate universe? If so, what would his motive be? Or would this be where the time platform comes in? I'm guessing that Gwen APPEARS to die in #121 but she was substituted with a clone. Where is she when #121 is going on? When does she come back and how? I'm not trying to be nitpicky, I'm just not sure about the way your story is laid out. Please help me to understand.
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Post by dav on Jun 3, 2014 18:21:42 GMT
I think I'm starting to get it now, but please tell me if I'm wrong! The Beyonder duplicated the multiverse, but modified it to suit his own tastes, including erasing Sins Past and finding a way that Gwen didn't die. He did this on a whim. No logic, no motives, just because he wanted to. Is this close?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 3, 2014 18:54:44 GMT
Sins Past, although WRITTEN later took place around Issue #62 Supposedly took place around Issue #62, when I say "Agreed, the events themselves supposedly already took place, but show me where, in the original work, you can actually squeeze those changes [from Sins Past] in. I don't see any good reason, to go with a story that didn't fit in the original continuity" I mean that if you go back and read issues 59-65, you'll see that the action takes place in the span of a few days. I'm guessing that Gwen APPEARS to die in #121 but she was substituted with a clone Yes, I think we can do without the LDM. There's enough time, while Spidey fights the GG in pages 14-17, to make the switch. Where is she when #121 is going on? When does she come back and how? She's right there until the switch, and then se comes back to the "present", in 1984. The Beyonder has nothing to do with any of this, it's all Thomas Fireheart using the time platform.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 3, 2014 19:01:05 GMT
I think I'm starting to get it now, but please tell me if I'm wrong! The Beyonder duplicated the multiverse, but modified it to suit his own tastes, including erasing Sins Past and finding a way that Gwen didn't die. He did this on a whim. No logic, no motives, just because he wanted to. Is this close? Duplicate means exact copy, if you alter things, even a few, you're not duplicating, you get an alternate universe. This is just earth-616, as it was before The Beyonder entered our multiverse. And he never came here. He went to the earth-616 we know of. The one in which current Marvel comics still take place. The whim was just the duplication.
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Post by dav on Jun 3, 2014 20:07:35 GMT
Sins Past, although WRITTEN later took place around Issue #62 Supposedly took place around Issue #62, when I say "Agreed, the events themselves supposedly already took place, but show me where, in the original work, you can actually squeeze those changes [from Sins Past] in. I don't see any good reason, to go with a story that didn't fit in the original continuity" I mean that if you go back and read issues 59-65, you'll see that the action takes place in the span of a few days. I'm guessing that Gwen APPEARS to die in #121 but she was substituted with a clone Yes, I think we can do without the LDM. There's enough time, while Spidey fights the GG in pages 14-17, to make the switch. Where is she when #121 is going on? When does she come back and how? She's right there until the switch, and then se comes back to the "present", in 1984. The Beyonder has nothing to do with any of this, it's all Thomas Fireheart using the time platform.
It would be nice to just deny Sins Past, but it is still accepted as part of Spidey history. I'm afraid it is necessary to write it out somehow, even though time-wise it has difficulty fitting in. Let's give it some thought and we might be able to find a way of "fixing" it.
Ok, So Gwen materializes in 1984. Comic time that would make her about three to four years younger than she would have been. Still workable (and no more shocking than the Clone Saga) and there would be a lot of drama with Gwen still loving Peter as if it was yesterday and him having to adjust to her being gone for three or four years. Adjusting to her being three to four years younger is where I have difficulty. Not only Peter, but all her friends being three or four years older could in my mind be problematic. It can be made to work, but to me (and this is JUST me) it doesn't sit right. It's not a rational or logical feeling, but for me it just feels wrong. If there can be some way for her to be missing for three or four years and come back having aged those three or four years I would feel better about it. It's just a gut feeling for me.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 3, 2014 20:37:45 GMT
You have to fix that in the current earth-616. Simply by saying that Norman tried to seduce Gwen and failed, so he made it all up to mess with Peter. He forged the letter, used genetic material to create the babies, brainwashed MJ to think she remembered what had never happened, whatever. It's a bad piece of writing and I don't consider it cannon, not for a second. If someone tells me that something which couldn't have happened, did happen, why do I have to accept that? Because is official? Because the editorial says is cannon? No, thank you, I don't buy that. Work on a story that fits into continuity, or try to sell it elsewhere.
By the end of the Stern run, Peter had just finished the first year of post-graduate studies. That places at around 23-24, depending on whether his birthday is towards the end or the beginning of the year. I can't find the issue, but I'd swear that in the early Romita issues is mentioned that Peter was 20, or 21. I'd say there's 2 years tops, between 1973 and 1984. As a reference, he graduated in 1978. Only 1 story year passed, while 6 years went by in the real world. Less than 2 years from 1973 to 1984, pretty sure.
Went back to check, Sins Past is supposed to take place between ASM #118 and #119. 4 months of story time in just one month of publication, that must be a Guinness record. But it gets worse, in the letter "Gwen" says she had tried to contact Peter and talked with her Aunt. At what phone number did she try her? May was under guard, by Otto's men, in Westchester. The letter was addressed at her home in Forest Hills. You couldn't stuff this story, in between those issues, even if you hired 20 Tokyo subway pushers. At the beginning of issue 119, Peter talks with Aunt May, and is made clear they had not seen each other since the events of ASM #118. Having him not visiting his Aunt for 4 months, is even less likely than Gwen sleeping with Norman. Furthermore, he calls Gwen to ask how Harry was doing. Harry had relapsed just the day before, if Gwen had just come back from Paris, how did he know she was there? Because she had gone nowhere, that's why. Furthermore, she tells him that Harry was having problems again, like a few months ago. If she was gone those 4 months, in what span of time did issues 99-118 take place? It's a mess, don't mind that story.
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Post by dav on Jun 4, 2014 1:44:10 GMT
You have to fix that in the current earth-616. Simply by saying that Norman tried to seduce Gwen and failed, so he made it all up to mess with Peter. He forged the letter, used genetic material to create the babies, brainwashed MJ to think she remembered what had never happened, whatever. It's a bad piece of writing and I don't consider it cannon, not for a second. If someone tells me that something which couldn't have happened, did happen, why do I have to accept that? Because is official? Because the editorial says is cannon? No, thank you, I don't buy that. Work on a story that fits into continuity, or try to sell it elsewhere. By the end of the Stern run, Peter had just finished the first year of post-graduate studies. That places at around 23-24, depending on whether his birthday is towards the end or the beginning of the year. I can't find the issue, but I'd swear that in the early Romita issues is mentioned that Peter was 20, or 21. I'd say there's 2 years tops, between 1973 and 1984. As a reference, he graduated in 1978. Only 1 story year passed, while 6 years went by in the real world. Less than 2 years from 1973 to 1984, pretty sure. Went back to check, Sins Past is supposed to take place between ASM #118 and #119. 4 months of story time in just one month of publication, that must be a Guinness record. But it gets worse, in the letter "Gwen" says she had tried to contact Peter and talked with her Aunt. At what phone number did she try her? May was under guard, by Otto's men, in Westchester. The letter was addressed at her home in Forest Hills. You couldn't stuff this story, in between those issues, even if you hired 20 Tokyo subway pushers. At the beginning of issue 119, Peter talks with Aunt May, and is made clear they had not seen each other since the events of ASM #118. Having him not visiting his Aunt for 4 months, is even less likely than Gwen sleeping with Norman. Furthermore, he calls Gwen to ask how Harry was doing. Harry had relapsed just the day before, if Gwen had just come back from Paris, how did he know she was there? Because she had gone nowhere, that's why. Furthermore, she tells him that Harry was having problems again, like a few months ago. If she was gone those 4 months, in what span of time did issues 99-118 take place? It's a mess, don't mind that story.
I still think despite the convoluted timeline, Sins Past needs to be properly written out. Norman being the insane mastermind he is, would probably do something like you described just to mess with Peter's head, so we have a foundation for a good story to write Sins Past out. He did hold MJ hostage at one point, so that would be the opportunity to brainwash her. This story would also be a great precursor to bring Gwen back. Kind of a foreshadowing of events to come!
Using the time platform to whisk Gwen away before she died is a good story to go with, but I still feel better having her come back in the present day. Maybe have Thomas Firehart whisk Gwen away and keep her somewhere where she would age proportionately and have her returned to modern day. I humbly admit I don't know anything about the Thomas Firehart character or what kind of stuff he did, but if he did what I'm suggesting it would leave Norman believing he killed Gwen which would be consistent with his actions in trying to hurt Peter. IMHO it would be better to bring Gwen back in 616. To go back to 1984 and create a fork in the timeline could give the older fans something more appealing to go with, but at least for me, I am more partial to sticking with 616, despite all the problems!
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Post by KurtW95 on Jun 4, 2014 9:51:11 GMT
I believe that Sins Past should just disappear from continuity. I don't care how they do it. I just want it gone! And Marvel to figure out a clever way to bring her back. (No clones!)
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 4, 2014 10:00:24 GMT
I take it you don't see a problem either, about her functioning properly in the current MU?
And no, no clones, of course. I'm amazed at people who say that bringing her back was already done and failed, referring to the original Clone Saga. Thanks again for yet another gift, Gerry!
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Post by KurtW95 on Jun 4, 2014 10:08:51 GMT
I think it would be refreshing to have a character like her in the Marvel U. Everything has gotten so grim and gritty. The return of Gwen can represent the return of hope. And when I said no clones, I meant like in the Ultimate Universe. I want the returned Gwen to be the real honest-to-goodness Gwen. But to retcon the death, clone away. It would probably be the best explanation to say the character that died was a clone. And that one or another clone that did it with Norman.
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Post by KurtW95 on Jun 4, 2014 10:14:54 GMT
I think the best revelation would be to show that the real Gwen has been unconscious in the possession of Miles Warren to serve as the base for the clones the makes.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 4, 2014 10:17:59 GMT
IMO, the MU is past redemption, best thing to do is go to the oldest restoration point, without a complete reboot. I liked the MU, back in the 60's and 70's and a good deal of the 80's. There was a real sense of continuity then. If you brought Gwen back, to the present day, most likely her character would be "updated" to better fit with the times. I'm remiss about what that would implicate.
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Post by spiderman62 on Jun 4, 2014 17:59:38 GMT
In terms of who the writer should be to bring back Gwen I wouldn't mind Chris Yost or Christos Gage doing it as I think they're really good writers. As for how, well I think other posters have already come up with better ideas then me.
As for whether the MU is past redemption ozy, I wouldn't go as far as to say it's past redemption personally, as I say in CBR I'd be genuinely surprised if they did do a reboot though I can't rule it out as I don't work for them.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 4, 2014 18:18:20 GMT
I'm not expecting a reboot, either. As long as the titles maintain a certain level of sales, everything will continue the same. But I'm not the only one, or even the first, to notice that, in the 90's, continuity in the MU became a real problem. Not only did the aging of character slowed down tremendously, like it had been doing since 1968, but it actually stopped and, in some cases, we could start seeing signs of de-aging.
Nowadays, I look at Aunt May and I just can't reconcile the character, with the one I grew up with. She's not the only one, but she represents the most clear case.
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