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Post by vixx on Jun 15, 2015 20:30:37 GMT
Agree that minimal things should be introduced - but one thing we have to introduce the ability for perfect clones - as the Gwen corpse is still around 2 years later - they checked her grave when the clone showed up and her fingerprints matched - that can really only be an exhumation ... And the Gwen clone that was shot didn't dissolve in panel - so I ran with it. The plus is that makes Gwen special - and once that's discovered in the lab, is motivation why everyone fixates on her outside of her connection to Spiderman , think it's a strong point. Don't think she should be so special she's the only one the planet ... but special enough that finding another person would be a pain in the ass... The detail is higher in this outline - so you can see my thoughts and beat them up ... Need to be able to defend that point of attack. The splicing is inline, not perfect, with how that stuff is actually done - talked with some friends in the field. The closest, mainstream examples would be GMO food - where they combine elements to make unique strains of food (the soybean Montasano makes or how some people with HIV never get AIDS, for example). I like the idea the Gwen clones are perfect, but all the others aren't - and Warren identifies it, and makes progress - but never quite figures it out. Gives him something hard to work on - and him making "progress" on this is referenced a couple of times. If he knows perfection is possible - explains why he doesn't just give it all up once he had his Gwen clone wife. I thought Harry's second acid trip would be better explained as Norman reprogramming him and it really making him sick, and its a better cover story than drugs - it's more believable. Acid doesn't work the way they describe - this is bolstered if "Joyce" doesn't survive it the first time. Norman didn't flip out the first time he dropped acid, but did this time...figure he feels guilty (plus his financial interests are taking a hit - but even then, 13% isn't that bad...the markets do that in an afternoon these days). There is some contradictory details there - like instantanious cloning being referenced while the original story takes about 6 to 8 weeks. I know Gwen has brothers - how does this change them? Which is better - the custodian is a clone or a real person? I'm partial to the imperfect clone angle, as it eliminates any family or outside connections, and a Warren clone would know how to work on the machines... frank the janitor may be loyal, but he wouldn't have the first clue what to do. The assistant could do it - but a female needs to die to escalate Norman and preserve the dialouge at the end of 122. If its a clone that ran the place, but it died in the lab (picture a grease spot at a desk) - so it's been unattended for a while...it would explain why Aunt May's double was an actress - there was no one left that knew how to use the equipment, but the idea survives ebcasue it worked before. If we're using a brainless clone for the bridge, it wasn't exactly "perfect". It was the culmination of Warren's untampered work, and it was achieved with all of his student's DNA, according to my script. The job he's forced to do much later, via brainwash, would be different, producing fully operational clones with the small defect of the dissolving upon death issue. Apples and oranges. As for "the Gwen clone that was shot didn't dissolve in panel", that was ambiguous, I would ignore it for the purpose of this retcon. We conceptually disagree on this, I think Gwen was special without any rare genetic condition, or without spider powers for that matter That's also why I avoided, her being targeted by everyone, a result of them all being fixated on her. I prefer to make up a different explanation for every case. Ok, if you're ready to give and defend a detailed and technical plot, in reference to the progress of Warren's cloning research, be my guest (as long as it doesn't make Gwen special). But brace yourself when you present it at the CBR forum, lots of angry MJ fans there. One problem, though, Harry was sick before Norman relapsed. Who reprogramed his son then? The exact quote was "nearly instantaneous", "nearly" being the operative word. She had cousins. I still prefer a real person, following the lines I described in my first draft, for this part of the story. I haven't figured out how to include the bit about "a female needs to die" yet. I lean more on the science - I don't think she's some special snowflake or an X-man ... I think she's a just a girl that survived to the next round it a test, because of some small unknown in her makeup enabled her to survive rigorus cloning process. I can know there are up to 6 gene markers that contribute to someone being tall...but I can't "make" a person tall with that knowledge. Same thing. I think quite a few people could have this trait, but finding and identifying them in a short time is unrealistic - it's easier to grab her for further study. Splicing provides stabililty, and Osborn's samples are HIGHLY volatle. It's why the body in his casket is a homeless drifter - you can't make a Norman clone yet. Understanding this anomaly, distilling it down to it's essance, may take decades - but applying it to Norman's DNA would give him the best shot at a near 100% clone. He could still find out something in making the twins that makes him cancel the whole project; for example - too much Gwen DNA needed to make it viable. The clones are basically developed in two pieces - the hardware (body) and the software (memories, personality) Norman has the brainwash machine, and thinks that's the ticket to the perfect software. He'd be pushing the team on the hardware first - creating a perfect vessel. Warren would graduate from petri dishes, to test tubes, to animals - then repeat for the human experiments. Gwen isn't Gwen at this point - she's Sample 16x. You figure at the test tube phase 5 of the 6 samples (him, joyce, osborn, gwen, some students) aren't performing as well as the animals - they are failing to form and/or disintegrating. It's a problem to solve. The 16x sample, is successful and gets moved along to the next phase, and work continues on some of the other samples... a hypothosis on why the variation is formed, studied and the findings incorporated into improving the others. They can hypothosize she has different make up, even confirm this - but there isn't a simple fix to isolate the cause and bring it to fruition. It would take dozens of iterations of growing a clone to various stages before a perfect vessel would happen (this is later supported with Carrion Gwen)....and these are nothing but lab rats to Warren...and they'd look gnarly. He'd pull them out of the tank, run tests, record findings, put them down, dissect them, then insinerate them and start over. It's during this time, he could note they are blank and start forming ways to recover or implant their memories... or he may not care about that at all right now..if he's interested in creating bodies to be harvested for organs, for example. He really would only know that sample is Gwen when she comes out of the tank looking like one of his students. Before that, she's a name on a page with a reference number and a blood slide. Norman would ultimately want a 100% clone of Norman - and would be PISSED that he'd have to splice anything from anywhere else. But if his kid is a screw up, and doing drugs, he'd begrudingly accept it to move forward and preserve the time table, provided his research on her doesn't turn up a teen mom with a meth addiction. The twins are highly evolved clones - the best to this point. They wound up needing a lot of Gwen's DNA to minimalize the disintegration and Goblin blood elements. The other clones may wind up not need anything from Gwen, if preventing disintegration until death is acceptable and the research was able to move forward. Say the twins wound up as 50/50 hybrids (or 80/20 or 60/40) Norman thinks he can build their personality with the machine, but it works differently on clones, which was unexpected. They have personalities, some distortion (the illusion of aging rapidly) and don't quite follow everything Norman tried to put in their head. Which is why the girl rejects her programing and makes her own choices, for example. Warren could be anywhere in the process when he gets Brainjacked, and has to recall and rediscover everything. Norman may of wanted him to forget the project but remember cloning, but the process dampened that. Norman kept him around because he hasn't escalated to murder yet, and he may need a get out of jail free card. He blew up the lab making Goblin serum and knows Warren is beyond brilliant in this area. When the Warren clone died going over the bridge - no one will learn how far he got in fxing the disintegration issue; but he did create at least one near perfect clone he knows about and monitors - the Gwen clone that got shot. The Gwen clone is just a short cut vesion of this first gwen clone. Warren added the software "fix" to solve the problem - and luckily that's detailed in the books. Granted it sucks... but it's detailed. The brainless clone is kept as part of the twin experiment, to study if the disintegration effects dont show up later - and as a control group. Everything else is destroyed. Warren has a lab assistant that dies after getting mind wiped and chucked into the incinerator. Boom. Dead girl. Harry could get zapped at the mansion and be in bed sick for a few days before his dad cracks. Killing a girl, zapping his kid, financial ruin, and the kid being sick from the effects is quite a stresser to your average psychopath.
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Post by vixx on Jun 15, 2015 21:05:48 GMT
As far as posting it - invite them to tear it apart and make it better, encourage it.
Ignore the worst ones ... I don't think this is to bring her back as Peter's wife, just clean up some shit stories and bring her back into the fold. The editors opened the door trying to be clever by threading a story in the old issues - but didn't bother writing a good one. It's not like we even got a venom like villian out of it... we got... the wonder twins... blearg.
They've had so much happen to the women in his life, and they all stick by him or come back to him, it's laughable at this point - especially the stolen baby.
The cool thing with Gwen returning, and confirming she spent 7 years in a jar because she's unknowingly engaged to Spiderman - she'd savage him. lol
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 15, 2015 21:59:48 GMT
I don't think she's some special snowflake or an X-man ... I think she's a just a girl that survived to the next round it a test, because of some small unknown in her makeup enabled her to survive rigorus cloning process. I can know there are up to 6 gene markers that contribute to someone being tall...but I can't "make" a person tall with that knowledge. Same thing. I think quite a few people could have this trait, but finding and identifying them in a short time is unrealistic - it's easier to grab her for further study. Splicing provides stabililty, and Osborn's samples are HIGHLY volatle. It's why the body in his casket is a homeless drifter - you can't make a Norman clone yet. Understanding this anomaly, distilling it down to it's essance, may take decades - but applying it to Norman's DNA would give him the best shot at a near 100% clone. He could still find out something in making the twins that makes him cancel the whole project; for example - too much Gwen DNA needed to make it viable. The clones are basically developed in two pieces - the hardware (body) and the software (memories, personality) Norman has the brainwash machine, and thinks that's the ticket to the perfect software. He'd be pushing the team on the hardware first - creating a perfect vessel. Warren would graduate from petri dishes, to test tubes, to animals - then repeat for the human experiments. Gwen isn't Gwen at this point - she's Sample 16x. You figure at the test tube phase 5 of the 6 samples (him, joyce, osborn, gwen, some students) aren't performing as well as the animals - they are failing to form and/or disintegrating. It's a problem to solve. The 16x sample, is successful and gets moved along to the next phase, and work continues on some of the other samples... a hypothosis on why the variation is formed, studied and the findings incorporated into improving the others. They can hypothosize she has different make up, even confirm this - but there isn't a simple fix to isolate the cause and bring it to fruition. It would take dozens of iterations of growing a clone to various stages before a perfect vessel would happen (this is later supported with Carrion Gwen)....and these are nothing but lab rats to Warren...and they'd look gnarly. He'd pull them out of the tank, run tests, record findings, put them down, dissect them, then insinerate them and start over. It's during this time, he could note they are blank and start forming ways to recover or implant their memories... or he may not care about that at all right now..if he's interested in creating bodies to be harvested for organs, for example. He really would only know that sample is Gwen when she comes out of the tank looking like one of his students. Before that, she's a name on a page with a reference number and a blood slide. Norman would ultimately want a 100% clone of Norman - and would be PISSED that he'd have to splice anything from anywhere else. But if his kid is a screw up, and doing drugs, he'd begrudingly accept it to move forward and preserve the time table, provided his research on her doesn't turn up a teen mom with a meth addiction. The twins are highly evolved clones - the best to this point. They wound up needing a lot of Gwen's DNA to minimalize the disintegration and Goblin blood elements. The other clones may wind up not need anything from Gwen, if preventing disintegration until death is acceptable and the research was able to move forward. Say the twins wound up as 50/50 hybrids (or 80/20 or 60/40) Norman thinks he can build their personality with the machine, but it works differently on clones, which was unexpected. They have personalities, some distortion (the illusion of aging rapidly) and don't quite follow everything Norman tried to put in their head. Which is why the girl rejects her programing and makes her own choices, for example. Warren could be anywhere in the process when he gets Brainjacked, and has to recall and rediscover everything. Norman may of wanted him to forget the project but remember cloning, but the process dampened that. Norman kept him around because he hasn't escalated to murder yet, and he may need a get out of jail free card. He blew up the lab making Goblin serum and knows Warren is beyond brilliant in this area. When the Warren clone died going over the bridge - no one will learn how far he got in fxing the disintegration issue; but he did create at least one near perfect clone he knows about and monitors - the Gwen clone that got shot. The Gwen clone is just a short cut vesion of this first gwen clone. Warren added the software "fix" to solve the problem - and luckily that's detailed in the books. Granted it sucks... but it's detailed. The brainless clone is kept as part of the twin experiment, to study if the disintegration effects dont show up later - and as a control group. Everything else is destroyed. Warren has a lab assistant that dies after getting mind wiped and chucked into the incinerator. Boom. Dead girl. Harry could get zapped at the mansion and be in bed sick for a few days before his dad cracks. Killing a girl, zapping his kid, financial ruin, and the kid being sick from the effects is quite a stresser to your average psychopath. I know that being part of a statistic anomaly, as in a "small unknown in her makeup [markup?]", doesn't make you special, but I still liked it better the other way. Despite that, I can see you've put a lot of effort into it, so I might get behind it. Let's see, how would the main events in Norman's life be reflected in the research? I'm taking about the milestones: ASM #40, 61, 66, 97 & 121. What would be Warren's moral compass, throughout the process?
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Post by vixx on Jun 15, 2015 22:45:24 GMT
Think you are better equipped to adapt those once we have a framework I think Warren is a decent guy, morally grey when it comes to advancing science. I think he's kind of forgettable as a person but brilliant in a lab. I don't think he sees anything wrong with what he's doing, the clones and everything leading up to them are specimens. He'd tell you they are extensions on the blood cells that created them. He'd see being able to clone (organs, for human testing, etc) as more important than any moral objection. He'd appreciate Darwinism in the animal kingdom, but abhor violence. I do think he really enjoys being around younger minds that are hungry for knowledge. It charges him. I think his feelings for Gwen start in the lab through his work - she'd be his perfect sample that proves his life's work. I think getting zapped scrambles him and removed a lot of the science that was his obsession, he'd be satisfied in his teaching job - but lonley,, feeling something is missing , think the feelings for his work seep in and come back aimed at her - the physical manifestation of his "perfect specimen". When the skills comeback, they'd be layered on top of the new reality - but in the form of his clone life. Basically, it follows the loose path of the greek myth of the artist that falls in love with it's work, and the God's make it real so he can marry it. That last part is optional - just adding a layer to what's there - as teachers lusting after students has changed a lot sense the story was written lol
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Post by vixx on Jun 16, 2015 0:27:52 GMT
I don't think she's some special snowflake or an X-man ... I think she's a just a girl that survived to the next round it a test, because of some small unknown in her makeup enabled her to survive rigorus cloning process. I can know there are up to 6 gene markers that contribute to someone being tall...but I can't "make" a person tall with that knowledge. Same thing. I think quite a few people could have this trait, but finding and identifying them in a short time is unrealistic - it's easier to grab her for further study. Splicing provides stabililty, and Osborn's samples are HIGHLY volatle. It's why the body in his casket is a homeless drifter - you can't make a Norman clone yet. Understanding this anomaly, distilling it down to it's essance, may take decades - but applying it to Norman's DNA would give him the best shot at a near 100% clone. He could still find out something in making the twins that makes him cancel the whole project; for example - too much Gwen DNA needed to make it viable. The clones are basically developed in two pieces - the hardware (body) and the software (memories, personality) Norman has the brainwash machine, and thinks that's the ticket to the perfect software. He'd be pushing the team on the hardware first - creating a perfect vessel. Warren would graduate from petri dishes, to test tubes, to animals - then repeat for the human experiments. Gwen isn't Gwen at this point - she's Sample 16x. You figure at the test tube phase 5 of the 6 samples (him, joyce, osborn, gwen, some students) aren't performing as well as the animals - they are failing to form and/or disintegrating. It's a problem to solve. The 16x sample, is successful and gets moved along to the next phase, and work continues on some of the other samples... a hypothosis on why the variation is formed, studied and the findings incorporated into improving the others. They can hypothosize she has different make up, even confirm this - but there isn't a simple fix to isolate the cause and bring it to fruition. It would take dozens of iterations of growing a clone to various stages before a perfect vessel would happen (this is later supported with Carrion Gwen)....and these are nothing but lab rats to Warren...and they'd look gnarly. He'd pull them out of the tank, run tests, record findings, put them down, dissect them, then insinerate them and start over. It's during this time, he could note they are blank and start forming ways to recover or implant their memories... or he may not care about that at all right now..if he's interested in creating bodies to be harvested for organs, for example. He really would only know that sample is Gwen when she comes out of the tank looking like one of his students. Before that, she's a name on a page with a reference number and a blood slide. Norman would ultimately want a 100% clone of Norman - and would be PISSED that he'd have to splice anything from anywhere else. But if his kid is a screw up, and doing drugs, he'd begrudingly accept it to move forward and preserve the time table, provided his research on her doesn't turn up a teen mom with a meth addiction. The twins are highly evolved clones - the best to this point. They wound up needing a lot of Gwen's DNA to minimalize the disintegration and Goblin blood elements. The other clones may wind up not need anything from Gwen, if preventing disintegration until death is acceptable and the research was able to move forward. Say the twins wound up as 50/50 hybrids (or 80/20 or 60/40) Norman thinks he can build their personality with the machine, but it works differently on clones, which was unexpected. They have personalities, some distortion (the illusion of aging rapidly) and don't quite follow everything Norman tried to put in their head. Which is why the girl rejects her programing and makes her own choices, for example. Warren could be anywhere in the process when he gets Brainjacked, and has to recall and rediscover everything. Norman may of wanted him to forget the project but remember cloning, but the process dampened that. Norman kept him around because he hasn't escalated to murder yet, and he may need a get out of jail free card. He blew up the lab making Goblin serum and knows Warren is beyond brilliant in this area. When the Warren clone died going over the bridge - no one will learn how far he got in fxing the disintegration issue; but he did create at least one near perfect clone he knows about and monitors - the Gwen clone that got shot. The Gwen clone is just a short cut vesion of this first gwen clone. Warren added the software "fix" to solve the problem - and luckily that's detailed in the books. Granted it sucks... but it's detailed. The brainless clone is kept as part of the twin experiment, to study if the disintegration effects dont show up later - and as a control group. Everything else is destroyed. Warren has a lab assistant that dies after getting mind wiped and chucked into the incinerator. Boom. Dead girl. Harry could get zapped at the mansion and be in bed sick for a few days before his dad cracks. Killing a girl, zapping his kid, financial ruin, and the kid being sick from the effects is quite a stresser to your average psychopath. I know that being part of a statistic anomaly, as in a "small unknown in her makeup [markup?]", doesn't make you special, but I still liked it better the other way. Despite that, I can see you've put a lot of effort into it, so I might get behind it. Let's see, how would the main events in Norman's life be reflected in the research? I'm taking about the milestones: ASM #40, 61, 66, 97 & 121. What would be Warren's moral compass, throughout the process? Here's my first shot at it. I'll leave 40 and 121 to you - think I'm better at a plasuable framework than weaving in the comic elements. This this story could start anytime in the early run really -as all the early elements exist weather Peter knows about them or not...but the 20's through 50's are probally best. For 61 - I think that ties into Norman running the cloning project. It is clear at the conceptual stage that a successful clone will be comprised of creating a body and recovering the memories. Warren details out how this theoretically is possible, warning that it will take trial and error. Norman drills down on the memory portion - asking things if memory manipulation and implementation is possible - to which Warren quotes his personal ethical boundries, how that's out of scope and dubious, and generally stating no - because the clones are generated from dna, they can only really have the memories and experiences of the original. More Norman questions about once they are fully developed and out of the lab - to which he gets a response that they are free to diverge on their own path at that particular point and are basically individuals - more like identical twins. Norman enlists a separate team at OsCorp to devise a way of memory manipulation, with Winkler as the chief scientist on the project. They don't have a clone to work from, or know that's what it's for. Norman (incorrectly) assumes the clones will be close enough to human that it will work the same, or with a slight tweak. He never intended the machine to be out in the world - and spends considerable efforts to regain the device. It's not damaged nearly as bad as folks are lead to believe. For 66 - Think the stress of the secret program, the lack of progress, the Gwen variable with no path to a pure clone, Warren and his constant clashing, the close call with Winkler, and Harry being a disappointment take its toll. Stressors depend on how far they are in the project. For 96-98, Harry is feeling his dad is distant, upset his friends are pissed at him, MJ is dissing him and Gwen is gone. The thefts - if they haven't been explained already, could be equipment for the clone project. At this point, Harry is a disappointment to Norman, but he hasn't been written off. Norman's dad insticts kick in, even if for selfish "I can't lose my only son" reasons...and I don't think he truly loses his humanity until 121/122. Think he decides after this the twins are his legacy insurance policy, even if they aren't pure...and arranges to have them sent overseas. The drugs use push Norman to consider use the Brain Wash machine on Harry, as he's big on the whole pure Osborne line and would see Harry as weak and unredeamible without intervention if he'd stoop to psychoactive drug use. Norman hasn't embraced the Goblin yet, so he still sees Harry as his best path forward. I do think the clones are Gwen's age when created, and age up to however old they are when we meet them naturally. That gives them a nice mix of genuine and manufactuered memories, and is a form of accelerated aging. If Peter actually worked at Oscorp, It would be evil/awesome if he helped on Norman's stasis chamber project...there are a bunch of benign reasons why Norman would want the tech, it could be a medical device - which he recognizes later got used to hold Gwen. He is into chemistry? He could work on the fluid it's filled with - to slow down metabolism to hibernate levels while being non conductive and oxygen rich -so all the wires and tubes and such don't zap the water, you age VERY slower and can breath the liquid.
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Post by vixx on Jun 16, 2015 1:32:05 GMT
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 16, 2015 6:51:30 GMT
Think you are better equipped to adapt those once we have a framework I think Warren is a decent guy, morally grey when it comes to advancing science. I think he's kind of forgettable as a person but brilliant in a lab. I don't think he sees anything wrong with what he's doing, the clones and everything leading up to them are specimens. He'd tell you they are extensions on the blood cells that created them. He'd see being able to clone (organs, for human testing, etc) as more important than any moral objection. He'd appreciate Darwinism in the animal kingdom, but abhor violence. Don't be so sure, if I asked is because I don't see where those anchor points would fit. I constructed my script around them, doing it the other way around, may prove to be an impossible task. Yes, but before he starts working under the machine's influence (in my script, that was after ASM #97), would he go all the way? Would he consent on harvesting fully developed clones? Brains and all?
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Post by vixx on Jun 16, 2015 7:21:22 GMT
Think you are better equipped to adapt those once we have a framework I think Warren is a decent guy, morally grey when it comes to advancing science. I think he's kind of forgettable as a person but brilliant in a lab. I don't think he sees anything wrong with what he's doing, the clones and everything leading up to them are specimens. He'd tell you they are extensions on the blood cells that created them. He'd see being able to clone (organs, for human testing, etc) as more important than any moral objection. He'd appreciate Darwinism in the animal kingdom, but abhor violence. Don't be so sure, if I asked is because I don't see where those anchor points would fit. I constructed my script around them, doing it the other way around, may prove to be an impossible task. Yes, but before he starts working under the machine's influence (in my script, that was after ASM #97), would he go all the way? Would he consent on harvesting fully developed clones? Brains and all? [ I absolutely think he would He's a teacher with radical ideas about cloning, who is passionate about science. He's most likely been turned down everywhere for funding - and would barrel in with blinders on when given a chance to prove his theory and advance the field. He'd look at a clone the same way he'd look at a cadaver I think he'd get squeamish around adding memory or making them human without the machine... He sees the scientific importance of understanding memory, but not the practical application. He's more of a hardware guy. The type that would do an extra 5 cycles go get it perfect vs right. Eating his lunch at a Morgue table while working on a body kind of guy. But the more success he has, the more he's proved correct, the closed he'll get to that moral line. I think working with the Gwen clone really changed him. Think her line is just easier to work with than the others. Each success is a little sweeter. Each failure a little harder. He starts talking to Her while working on the body. He'd call her Miss Stacy instead of specimen. Then Gwedalyn, finally Gwen. That line between the girl in the classroom and the girl on his table blurs - especially if the real one is spending time with him as a lab assistant. Working in these conditions is lonley ... Repetstive. Can play the widow angle. The key here is.. Well.. He's nuts
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 16, 2015 8:14:47 GMT
It is clear at the conceptual stage that a successful clone will be comprised of creating a body and recovering the memories. Warren details out how this theoretically is possible, warning that it will take trial and error. Norman drills down on the memory portion - asking things if memory manipulation and implementation is possible - to which Warren quotes his personal ethical boundries, how that's out of scope and dubious, and generally stating no - because the clones are generated from dna, they can only really have the memories and experiences of the original. More Norman questions about once they are fully developed and out of the lab - to which he gets a response that they are free to diverge on their own path at that particular point and are basically individuals - more like identical twins. Norman enlists a separate team at OsCorp to devise a way of memory manipulation, with Winkler as the chief scientist on the project. They don't have a clone to work from, or know that's what it's for. Norman (incorrectly) assumes the clones will be close enough to human that it will work the same, or with a slight tweak. He never intended the machine to be out in the world - and spends considerable efforts to regain the device. It's not damaged nearly as bad as folks are lead to believe. At this point, Harry is a disappointment to Norman, but he hasn't been written off. Norman's dad insticts kick in, even if for selfish "I can't lose my only son" reasons...and I don't think he truly loses his humanity until 121/122. Think he decides after this the twins are his legacy insurance policy, even if they aren't pure...and arranges to have them sent overseas. The drugs use push Norman to consider use the Brain Wash machine on Harry, as he's big on the whole pure Osborne line and would see Harry as weak and unredeamible without intervention if he'd stoop to psychoactive drug use. Norman hasn't embraced the Goblin yet, so he still sees Harry as his best path forward. If Peter actually worked at Oscorp, It would be evil/awesome if he helped on Norman's stasis chamber project...there are a bunch of benign reasons why Norman would want the tech, it could be a medical device - which he recognizes later got used to hold Gwen. He is into chemistry? He could work on the fluid it's filled with - to slow down metabolism to hibernate levels while being non conductive and oxygen rich -so all the wires and tubes and such don't zap the water, you age VERY slower and can breath the liquid. Brilliant, programming someone's memories on his/her clone, would be a much cleaner way of attaining immortality, than going with a brain transplant. This would take place before ASM #40, then he forgets about the GG and the most shadowy parts, of the clone project. Winkler's team would be in charge of doing something that Norman, outside of his GG persona, couldn't understand as a business program (because it wasn't), so he would basically be ignorant of what it is they were actually doing. This explains why in the original "Brainwasher" storyline, Winkler seemed to be a rogue agent inside of Oscorp, with so much leeway to move equipment around, without Norman's express approval. It would also be credible that Winkler, once he realized his boss didn't remember what he was supposed to be doing, would go looking for outside partners (The Kingpin) to make a profit from his invention. Furthermore, once he regains is memories in ASM #66, having being betrayed already, he would now make sure Warren's assistant would be loyal to him, before placing him as the curator for both projects. The only thing I'm not clear about, is why before ASM #121, would Norman remember about the twins. The way I see it, the clone project would be the only thing Norman would remember something about, between ASM 20s and ASM #66. The memory project would be totally lost to him, between ASM #40 and 61. From ASM #61 to 66, he would commission the rest of Winkler's team, with the repair of the machine. In ASM #66, he would use the machine to reprogram Warren's assistant, into loyalty. That way, the curator now oversees both projects isolated from Norman, following his instructions until he's established contact again. Between ASM #68 and ASM #96, due to the events of SSM #2, Osborn is completely free of the GG persona and his memories. This is supported by the comics, where no indication lead to believe that the GG was coming back (unlike the first relapse, which had been foreshadowed since ASM #47). Only after his third relapse, can he access his memories/projects again. That would be a nice irony, but the fact of the matter is that he never really worked for Osborn, it was a plot device, to show us that Norman was doing ok, and to add to the stress that would trigger the second GG "episode". As soon as the story ended, Peter focused on his photographer career again.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 16, 2015 8:24:08 GMT
The key here is.. Well.. He's nuts That was Conway's retcon of the character. I was hoping to reinstate the Silver Age character, and place the blame on Norman, for his mental condition. As with Harry, the use of the brainwashing machine, reiterated in the case of Miles and mixed with drug abuse in Harry's situation, would mess his brain for good.
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Post by vixx on Jun 16, 2015 15:22:43 GMT
The key here is.. Well.. He's nuts That was Conway's retcon of the character. I was hoping to reinstate the Silver Age character, and place the blame on Norman, for his mental condition. As with Harry, the use of the brainwashing machine, reiterated in the case of Miles and mixed with drug abuse in Harry's situation, would mess his brain for good. There is lots of types of nuts - Conway made him insaine. I think he's slowly progressing towards it as he spends more time in the lab alone I simply meant no matter what , he still ends up crazy
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 16, 2015 16:28:20 GMT
That was Conway's retcon of the character. I was hoping to reinstate the Silver Age character, and place the blame on Norman, for his mental condition. As with Harry, the use of the brainwashing machine, reiterated in the case of Miles and mixed with drug abuse in Harry's situation, would mess his brain for good. There is lots of types of nuts - Conway made him insaine. I think he's slowly progressing towards it as he spends more time in the lab alone I simply meant no matter what , he still ends up crazy Well, that's unavoidable, thanks to Gerry again. But it can be explained in a much better way than the cliched, "fell madly in love".
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Post by vixx on Jun 16, 2015 17:05:33 GMT
It is clear at the conceptual stage that a successful clone will be comprised of creating a body and recovering the memories. Warren details out how this theoretically is possible, warning that it will take trial and error. Norman drills down on the memory portion - asking things if memory manipulation and implementation is possible - to which Warren quotes his personal ethical boundries, how that's out of scope and dubious, and generally stating no - because the clones are generated from dna, they can only really have the memories and experiences of the original. More Norman questions about once they are fully developed and out of the lab - to which he gets a response that they are free to diverge on their own path at that particular point and are basically individuals - more like identical twins. Norman enlists a separate team at OsCorp to devise a way of memory manipulation, with Winkler as the chief scientist on the project. They don't have a clone to work from, or know that's what it's for. Norman (incorrectly) assumes the clones will be close enough to human that it will work the same, or with a slight tweak. He never intended the machine to be out in the world - and spends considerable efforts to regain the device. It's not damaged nearly as bad as folks are lead to believe. At this point, Harry is a disappointment to Norman, but he hasn't been written off. Norman's dad insticts kick in, even if for selfish "I can't lose my only son" reasons...and I don't think he truly loses his humanity until 121/122. Think he decides after this the twins are his legacy insurance policy, even if they aren't pure...and arranges to have them sent overseas. The drugs use push Norman to consider use the Brain Wash machine on Harry, as he's big on the whole pure Osborne line and would see Harry as weak and unredeamible without intervention if he'd stoop to psychoactive drug use. Norman hasn't embraced the Goblin yet, so he still sees Harry as his best path forward. If Peter actually worked at Oscorp, It would be evil/awesome if he helped on Norman's stasis chamber project...there are a bunch of benign reasons why Norman would want the tech, it could be a medical device - which he recognizes later got used to hold Gwen. He is into chemistry? He could work on the fluid it's filled with - to slow down metabolism to hibernate levels while being non conductive and oxygen rich -so all the wires and tubes and such don't zap the water, you age VERY slower and can breath the liquid. Brilliant, programming someone's memories on his/her clone, would be a much cleaner way of attaining immortality, than going with a brain transplant. This would take place before ASM #40, then he forgets about the GG and the most shadowy parts, of the clone project. Winkler's team would be in charge of doing something that Norman, outside of his GG persona, couldn't understand as a business program (because it wasn't), so he would basically be ignorant of what it is they were actually doing. This explains why in the original "Brainwasher" storyline, Winkler seemed to be a rogue agent inside of Oscorp, with so much leeway to move equipment around, without Norman's express approval. It would also be credible that Winkler, once he realized his boss didn't remember what he was supposed to be doing, would go looking for outside partners (The Kingpin) to make a profit from his invention. Furthermore, once he regains is memories in ASM #66, having being betrayed already, he would now make sure Warren's assistant would be loyal to him, before placing him as the curator for both projects. The only thing I'm not clear about, is why before ASM #121, would Norman remember about the twins. The way I see it, the clone project would be the only thing Norman would remember something about, between ASM 20s and ASM #66. The memory project would be totally lost to him, between ASM #40 and 61. From ASM #61 to 66, he would commission the rest of Winkler's team, with the repair of the machine. In ASM #66, he would use the machine to reprogram Warren's assistant, into loyalty. That way, the curator now oversees both projects isolated from Norman, following his instructions until he's established contact again. Between ASM #68 and ASM #96, due to the events of SSM #2, Osborn is completely free of the GG persona and his memories. This is supported by the comics, where no indication lead to believe that the GG was coming back (unlike the first relapse, which had been foreshadowed since ASM #47). Only after his third relapse, can he access his memories/projects again. That would be a nice irony, but the fact of the matter is that he never really worked for Osborn, it was a plot device, to show us that Norman was doing ok, and to add to the stress that would trigger the second GG "episode". As soon as the story ended, Peter focused on his photographer career again. I figure there would be a lot of cloak and dagger, and all the clones would just be labeled as specimens, he would get status updates and what not - but like any good manager running a company, he's focused on the results not the details. He may know about the twins, give feedback and directions - but not realize the team is following more specific instructions given by Norman earlier in planning. He may not realize until much later that these are less experiments in cloning - and more Norman progeny. Example: isolation and extraction of sample16x sequence successful, replication underway. First attempt at splicing to subject 3F attempted at 13:16, resulting in mutation in section 5-8, followed by complete disintegration at 13:19. This resulted in stability gains over previous simulations by :42 .Dissection and analysis planned for today, with second attempt targeted within 48 hours. Reports to follow.
The move to Europe may be for other reasons - legal, expertise, maybe they are done with the hardware, and Norman moves the software development overseas after the Winkler episode - as many think the machine is broken and that project shut down. This could happen with something as simple as a memo. Warren could be focused on working to figure out how to stabilize a single source clone using data from the hybrid project and the Gwen clone. He'd start with the existing samples, with the goal of making a pure Norman clone. Those would be harder tasks, as you have to preserve the source DNA - and the fact he didn't perfect it, only improve it... shows it ended early with the brainjacking. He could figure it out around 96-98? Maybe the thefts are to speed up completion so they can be moved to Europe, after learning Harry did drugs. He seems to think drugs are a world apart in 96 - and would look down on them as beneath an Osborn...a weak person problem. Also - in 96, the theater doubles as a Goblin lair - and pulls certain feels up in Norman, eventually changing him. He may have a similar draw to the project, but without costumes and what not, it's not going to freak him out. Think as we go from 40 to 121 there is a slow convergence between Goblin thinking and Norman thinking, even if they don't know about each other...they'd start drawing similar conclusions given the same variables, but use different methods to get the results. Think that's part of the reason its so easy for Spiderman to snap the GOblin to Norman in Harry's hospital room. The culmination of coarse is waking up in the morge as one person... essentially the good part of Norman died in 122. If they are brainwashed early - they'd follow normal norman, crazy norman and goblin norman all the same... to them - they are all the same person. Perhaps after Winkler's betrayal - he zaps them a second time or third for good measure? Shoot - he could zap them every morning when they enter the building lol Also - I think Winklers full mandate is to be able to copy someone's essance into a computer, and write it into a new host. Basically what Ock was able to accomplish much later. The brain wash machine was more of an midpoint device - covering the work around mapping and affecting memory and writing it. The "scripting" a new personality is a place holder until they learn how to pull and store real memory into a device. So basically - he's half way done when he gets stopped. Someone else would have picked up from where he left off - perhaps one of the scientists in the clone saga. Might be why May's memories were good enough to fool everyone. Any chance Ock could get copies of the research and build on/perfect it? Never known him to build on others work... Wow - we just touched on 3 awful stories: Sins, Aunt May's Kidnapping, Doc Ock taking over Peter's Body lol How early in the run could the story with Norman/Warren start?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 16, 2015 22:21:16 GMT
I figure there would be a lot of cloak and dagger, and all the clones would just be labeled as specimens, he would get status updates and what not - but like any good manager running a company, he's focused on the results not the details. He may know about the twins, give feedback and directions - but not realize the team is following more specific instructions given by Norman earlier in planning. He may not realize until much later that these are less experiments in cloning - and more Norman progeny.
The move to Europe may be for other reasons - legal, expertise, maybe they are done with the hardware, and Norman moves the software development overseas after the Winkler episode - as many think the machine is broken and that project shut down. This could happen with something as simple as a memo. He could figure it out around 96-98? Maybe the thefts are to speed up completion so they can be moved to Europe, after learning Harry did drugs. Also - in 96, the theater doubles as a Goblin lair - and pulls certain feels up in Norman, eventually changing him. He may have a similar draw to the project, but without costumes and what not, it's not going to freak him out. If they are brainwashed early - they'd follow normal norman, crazy norman and goblin norman all the same... to them - they are all the same person. Perhaps after Winkler's betrayal - he zaps them a second time or third for good measure? Shoot - he could zap them every morning when they enter the building lol Also - I think Winklers full mandate is to be able to copy someone's essence into a computer, and write it into a new host. […] Any chance Ock could get copies of the research and build on/perfect it? Never known him to build on others work... How early in the run could the story with Norman/Warren start? The twins wouldn't be a "detail", they'd be his big bet for a legacy (after being denied immortality), so I don't think getting an update on their status, could go unnoticed by his GG persona. There's only a chance for Norman, to contact his second-in-command, without risking all the information he's obtain with progress reports, triggering another GG episode. That chance would be after page 7, issue 97. The move to Europe was done for the reasons exposed in the comics, I don't see any gain from modifying that part, of Spidey's history. Also, we need the machine in NY, for zapping MJ and the twins later. What are those thefts you've already mentioned? I don't recall them. But the problem is, those things that had some "pull" over him, did freak him out, because they represented fragments of his lost memory, of a part of his life which was buried. It wasn't just the costumes. Having contact with the clone project, up to ASM #66, is ok. Wanting the Gwen clone to grow, to be used against Peter, is a no-no for Norman. The brainwasher, would be totally lost to him, between ASM #40 and 61, as seen in the comics. Yes, they would be "loyal", but that's not the issue. I'd say he starts zapping them after Winkler, but it would need to be repeated, as the effects worn off. Ouch, that's a crappy plot fro Slott, if there ever was one. You can't expect to copy the OS, from one brain, and paste it into a different one, successfully. Even a cloned brain is tricky, because the neural connections, haven't yet been established in the clone, but don't tell anyone Regarding you question, "no" unless Ock obtained the schematics on his own. The first time they ever "partnered" was while he stayed in Europe ( Superior Spider-Man Team Up #11). As earlier as needed, although I would wait until he was finished building his Goblin toys (ASM #17), which is when he started formulating long term plans.
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Post by vixx on Jun 16, 2015 22:53:36 GMT
I figure there would be a lot of cloak and dagger, and all the clones would just be labeled as specimens, he would get status updates and what not - but like any good manager running a company, he's focused on the results not the details. He may know about the twins, give feedback and directions - but not realize the team is following more specific instructions given by Norman earlier in planning. He may not realize until much later that these are less experiments in cloning - and more Norman progeny.
The move to Europe may be for other reasons - legal, expertise, maybe they are done with the hardware, and Norman moves the software development overseas after the Winkler episode - as many think the machine is broken and that project shut down. This could happen with something as simple as a memo. He could figure it out around 96-98? Maybe the thefts are to speed up completion so they can be moved to Europe, after learning Harry did drugs. Also - in 96, the theater doubles as a Goblin lair - and pulls certain feels up in Norman, eventually changing him. He may have a similar draw to the project, but without costumes and what not, it's not going to freak him out. If they are brainwashed early - they'd follow normal norman, crazy norman and goblin norman all the same... to them - they are all the same person. Perhaps after Winkler's betrayal - he zaps them a second time or third for good measure? Shoot - he could zap them every morning when they enter the building lol Also - I think Winklers full mandate is to be able to copy someone's essence into a computer, and write it into a new host. […] Any chance Ock could get copies of the research and build on/perfect it? Never known him to build on others work... How early in the run could the story with Norman/Warren start? The twins wouldn't be a "detail", they'd be his big bet for a legacy (after being denied immortality), so I don't think getting an update on their status, could go unnoticed by his GG persona. There's only a chance for Norman, to contact his second-in-command, without risking all the information he's obtain with progress reports, triggering another GG episode. That chance would be after page 7, issue 97. The move to Europe was done for the reasons exposed in the comics, I don't see any gain from modifying that part, of Spidey's history. Also, we need the machine in NY, for zapping MJ and the twins later. What are those thefts you've already mentioned? I don't recall them. But the problem is, those things that had some "pull" over him, did freak him out, because they represented fragments of his lost memory, of a part of his life which was buried. It wasn't just the costumes. Having contact with the clone project, up to ASM #66, is ok. Wanting the Gwen clone to grow, to be used against Peter, is a no-no for Norman. The brainwasher, would be totally lost to him, between ASM #40 and 61, as seen in the comics. Yes, they would be "loyal", but that's not the issue. I'd say he starts zapping them after Winkler, but it would need to be repeated, as the effects worn off. Ouch, that's a crappy plot fro Slott, if there ever was one. You can't expect to copy the OS, from one brain, and paste it into a different one, successfully. Even a cloned brain is tricky, because the neural connections, haven't yet been established in the clone, but don't tell anyone Regarding you question, "no" unless Ock obtained the schematics on his own. The first time they ever "partnered" was while he stayed in Europe ( Superior Spider-Man Team Up #11). As earlier as needed, although I would wait until he was finished building his Goblin toys (ASM #17), which is when he started formulating long term plans. Ok - the 66 to 98 is easy, the project is far enough along by 61 to 68 that it's just a wait and see. The lab team works on the other strains, and Norman gave instructions around her to move them to Europe when that's done. He forgets about it, and gets an update around 98 that the move is underway or has been completed. He may even disband the original team, and have someone watching their details on a monitor "if they don't show destablization signs in a month, move them to europe" (never seeing in the tanks) ...or move all work to another team in another area for secrecy. I don't look at the twins as a detail - more as a Phase 2. It's plausible that Warren has DNA from before Norman was infected, depending on when the story starts and is looking for a radical cure (explaining why they don't sense something wrong with his blood) and post 122 Norman changes the focus of the project to the immortality angle and wanting a clone with Goblin Blood. He's latching onto the twins because 1) he may die before a better option is available and 2) Harry is a screw up. Everything we know about them, including Norman's interest, may be false. They could have been in a storage locker for years, with implanted memories and escaped....only to be recaptured. For cloning - Phase 0 is in test tubes and such, Phase 1 is the brainless clone, Phase 2 is the hybrids and Phase 3 would be the pure line clones - culminating in a Norman clone. I think the more perfect the clone - the harder and longer it is to achieve success - with Norman's clone being the hardest of all. The thefts were in 97 - Goblin was hijacking and ripping off anything not nailed down, while Peter was laying low. Need to rethink some of this - feel free to give it a go Think the planning phase where they are blueprinting everything and figuring out what technology they are going to need is important... a lot of the tech that pops up later in the series can be traced to this project - which gives it an anchor. By the Aunt May story - they have the stasis chamber, are very far along in genetics, and the have the ability to transfer memories. They could have built on Stromm's tech that transferred his mind to machinery - except they are adapting it to organically. The memories part is perfected by the ock story...but it should be the same tech. It could have gotten out many, many ways (spies at oscorp, norman infiltrated every importat tech center and is pulling information back to OsCOrp, Norman stealing from Ock, etc) - but that's not really important here. For the clone Sage - they have single strain clones that are imperfect - except Gwen Clones. and they are studying her some place to figure out why -the site may not be abandoned when they discover it. They also can't move memories perfectly to these bodies yet. The brain control machine helps enlist people, keep things secret, is an early memory manipulator, etc. For all we know, once Warren got to a point where single strain clones were feasible - he was zapped for asking to many questions and having morals, replaced with several Warren clones working 24/7 that could be made completely loyal to Osborn. He may have been zapped and told to go back to his classroom, only to return to the fold if he's contacted with a trigger phrase...or Silver Age Warren is intact and floating in a tank right along side Gwen after the project reached the cool down phase - screwed by his partnership with Norman. ( if this is the case, there should be 3 or 4 tanks, one for Aunt May, another for someone they planned to grab or grabbed and failed to keep ... If they take requests, Would also be awesome if they still had the original hobgoblin , because the rest sucked so bad lol Edit: If they are wrapping up Phase 2 by 61 and jumping into Phase 3, they could clone Warren and zap the clone, putting the real Warren in a tank. This would tease out as proof that zapping a clone doesn't work well - as he goes nuts - eventually jumping off a roof (and popping up again and again). They could pull him out and put him back in if they get stuck. Poor Joyce keeps getting zapped and dies. This ends the project by 66 - with only a long cool down / monitoring period remaining. Later, they could find proof that a healthy, untainted Norman clone (disintegrates after death) was created and it's either in storage until the memory transfer process was perfected or it was destroyed post 122 on Norman's orders when he changed the scope and took over Norman's mind. It's a stretch, but bringing back more silver age characters would help the book, and I don't think many would complain. The 3rd tank could have May's chart, meaning this is where she was at one point, and the 4th could be being prepped in anticipation of Mary Jane or Harry, with notes that his drug use disqualifies him for the process. The memory team, (now located in Europe?), could be working on the clones. Again, I think they'd be about Gwen's age coming out of the tank - a result of the splicing - and age up normally to when we meet them. I think I understand what needs to happen with project and twins between 61 and 98, what about 99 - 121 (aside from Harry getting zapped)? The clones are in Europe? Long story short - Osborn sought ( reason for project) using his company, resources and advanced theoretical technologies. The plan was to create and refine clones, then transfer his conscience at that point to the new, "perfect" vessel. Significant progress was made at a high moral cost - but ultimately the Goblin took over his personality and the project was cancelled or changed direction around 122. From these efforts - the cloning process, stasis chambers and memory transfer processes encountered later were initially designed; later improved by others. Through significant later discoveries, Gwen Stacy and Professor Warren are found alive, after being kidnapped and held in stasis to advance the project; and Gwen's kids are discovered to be highly evolved clones - their origins covered through a false memory imprinted on MJ during her pregnancy.
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