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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 20:01:55 GMT
I was in agreement with this. The coloring probably can't be trusted, to reflect daylight, but the narrative states that everything unfolded the same day. Checkout 121 - before he goes looking for Peter - he's cracking up after Harry colapses the night before (or at like 3 in the morning) it's pich black with a moon shown on one page. It's blue and daytime when he leaves, and Peter (same time in a different place) has flying birds in his panels on the way back from the bugle. IMO he clearly didn't crack, jump on his glider and go after them immediately. He stewed in a hideout for a bit before deciding going after them was the winning strategy. The art and the caption boxes, contradict each other, which one are you going to believe? After all, the title of the comic is "The Night Gwen Stacy Died", even tough the skies aren't as dark, as one would expect.
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Post by dav on Jun 14, 2015 20:42:43 GMT
you need older samples - the ones from 148 have memory from right before she died, meaning the were harvested much later. Think there needs to be something special about Gwen with relation to the cloning - maybe hers is the only one out of a batch that reacts positively to the blood. This would explain why Norman targets her vs Goblin targeting her for the connection to Spiderman and make a more palatable story for todays times - Warren, so far, is a pure scientists, he marvels at this pure girl that through a 1 in a zillion gentetic fluke makes his vision possible. That motivation can get corrupted by the brainwashing machine into he's into her. Explains why, even years later, the twins aren't pure Norman and have Gwen DNA. The thing about her memories being "intact but buried" is such a load of crap, that it can't be even addressed, to maintain a basic modicum of scientific "appeal". As for making Gwen's a special case, I'm not in favor of coincidences, but we can pitch the idea, see what others think. I don't think Conway put as much thought into this story as you have! LOL #121 title "the night Gwen Stacy died" and yet #122 appears to show things at the bridge happening during the daytime! Let's just say that it was bad background coloring choices on the part of the colorist! Going to reality, I know that coloring technology at that time was pretty inadequate. From what I understand, the Hulk was originally supposed to be grey, but the coloring technology was so bad that he kept on coming out different colors, so they made him green to fix the problem! This may have been the problem with the inconsistency of the coloring in the background of #122. As I mentioned in an earlier post (don't ask me what thread, because there are so many regarding trying to resolve all the issues in bring Gwen back) a flow chart would help in creating an outline for this story. After skimming over #122 again, I'm going to say that the events in #122 happened somewhere between 7:00pm and say, 2:00am. However, this might have to be modified in order to get things to line up with Clone Saga, Osborn's resurrection and Sins Past. Like I said, a flow chart would be helpful! (this is why I am willing to consider just bringing an "uncorrupted" Gwen over from an alternate universe! We get the Gwen we want, but don't have to worry about resolving all this Sins Past and Clone crap!)
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 21:29:44 GMT
you need older samples - the ones from 148 have memory from right before she died, meaning the were harvested much later. Think there needs to be something special about Gwen with relation to the cloning - maybe hers is the only one out of a batch that reacts positively to the blood. This would explain why Norman targets her vs Goblin targeting her for the connection to Spiderman and make a more palatable story for todays times - Warren, so far, is a pure scientists, he marvels at this pure girl that through a 1 in a zillion gentetic fluke makes his vision possible. That motivation can get corrupted by the brainwashing machine into he's into her. Explains why, even years later, the twins aren't pure Norman and have Gwen DNA. The thing about her memories being "intact but buried" is such a load of crap, that it can't be even addressed, to maintain a basic modicum of scientific "appeal". As for making Gwen's a special case, I'm not in favor of coincidences, but we can pitch the idea, see what others think. Sounds cool - My logic is that you have to have a solid reason for Warren, Norman and Goblin to want/need her - and two of those folks don't have the Spiderman connection yet. They need to have interlocking motivations. Warren is a man of science at this point - she gets on his radar by being the only viable sample that progresses his work in the very early stage. If the sample size is small, that's not too coincidental (i.e. 1 in 3 students, plus his and Janice's DNA). This discrepancy can be a small anomoly that Warren believes he can overcome in time, clone disintegration, and allows him to move forward to proof of concept. This explains why the Gwen clone from 144 and this Gwen clone are the only ones that don't disintegrate. (after being shot, and after the check on the body 2 years later). When Norman volenteers himself for cloning - Warren can discover what he is, leading to his need to go. This is also why Peter shouldn't be in the original samples, because his sample would be as weird as Osborne's. If his memories are wiped, part of why he fixates on her as special may be him knowing the lab results - but not having the memories on why, and that gets translated in his "new brain" as romantic interest. Norman just cares about getting the results quickly - he overestimated his abilities before in creating Goblin serum, leading to an accident. He wipes Warren and Joyce, and is ok with it - becasue he has a Gwen clone, the Brain wash machine (and to a lessor extent - the serum). He finds out he can't move forward with a pure Osborn clone - because without Warren - all clones other than Gwen disintergate almost immediately and his Goblin blood messes up the process. Also - clone DNA is just different enough (as mentioned in later stories) that the brainwash machine doesn't work on clones (no super clone army for Norman, no memory for the clone). To Norman, Gwen is just a means to an end. He knows at this point, he'll need to use Warren's work as a base for his own, and has a straight path forward ... once the disintegration path is overcome through researching Gwen's DNA and creating Gwen/Osborne hybrid strains that produce the desired trait. He may start out trying to only isolate overcoming the disintegration effect, but end up needing a 50/50 split to overcome the blood limitation. Joyce is zapped to forget Warren, help Osborn, continue her work (she's worked with Warren and is smart), ask no questions, and talk to no one (or she's murdered, or zapped by Norman and again by the Goblin, or there is a different curator). When the Goblin pops up - he knows of the stalled experiment, the clone with no memory, the research on Gwen (pointing to the Peter and Harry connection) and that Peter Parker is Spiderman. He'd also know Norman was working with Joyce, and knew they were close to moving forward. At this point - Harry is a lost cause as an heir; and Gobby has no such reservations grabbing her to hurt Spiderman and move things forward. Joyce keeps working in the lab up until the twins are ready, and wouldn't bat an eye when Gwen is dropped off, she could still be working there well after Norman has given up on the place. Part of the reason the twins are a bit messed up is because Joyce and Norman made them - not Warren. The memories thing is awful - but the hypnosis was to recover the memories and make her loyal to Warren. At this point - we stop at the clones don't have their memories. Warren can figure out fixing that later - it makes sense in an iterative process this would be the norm. Norman wouldn't care about that - because he thinks he can program whatever he wants into their head with the Brain Wash machine. He wants perfect bodies. To my knowledge there is no continuity conflicts in the above passages.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 21:46:15 GMT
The thing about her memories being "intact but buried" is such a load of crap, that it can't be even addressed, to maintain a basic modicum of scientific "appeal". As for making Gwen's a special case, I'm not in favor of coincidences, but we can pitch the idea, see what others think. I don't think Conway put as much thought into this story as you have! LOL #121 title "the night Gwen Stacy died" and yet #122 appears to show things at the bridge happening during the daytime! Let's just say that it was bad background coloring choices on the part of the colorist! Going to reality, I know that coloring technology at that time was pretty inadequate. From what I understand, the Hulk was originally supposed to be grey, but the coloring technology was so bad that he kept on coming out different colors, so they made him green to fix the problem! This may have been the problem with the inconsistency of the coloring in the background of #122. As I mentioned in an earlier post (don't ask me what thread, because there are so many regarding trying to resolve all the issues in bring Gwen back) a flow chart would help in creating an outline for this story. After skimming over #122 again, I'm going to say that the events in #122 happened somewhere between 7:00pm and say, 2:00am. However, this might have to be modified in order to get things to line up with Clone Saga, Osborn's resurrection and Sins Past. Like I said, a flow chart would be helpful! (this is why I am willing to consider just bringing an "uncorrupted" Gwen over from an alternate universe! We get the Gwen we want, but don't have to worry about resolving all this Sins Past and Clone crap!) Heh you are undoubtedly right, especially when they added Sins - and I was ok leaving her dead; until I read Sins..and I have some time on my hands at the moment. Heard that too about the coloring process. I tried charted it - think it starts early in the morning when it's still dark, With Norman going to the lab early in the morning when it's still dark out. He leaves looking for Peter, and Peter leaves for the Bugle during the day - after noon (around 1pm would be my guess) and the panels are blue. During the fight - there is smoke coming from the stacks, lights on in windows and such and lots of cars on the bridge - meaning the workday is still happening but it's getting late; so likley 4 to 5pm. After she dies - Peter is going through the city and the background is orange - it's getting later. When they are carting out the body - it's still light out, and past making the late editions of the paper. When Peter shows up at MJ's house, she's still home - so figure 8 to 9 pm...which gives Harry time to sneak out of an open crime scene after the cops leave. Sunset in late May matches this. If what I posted about everyone's motivations lines up, and we can adopt Oz's narrative - the only missing pieces are discovering the lair (I think its the first place Norman goes to on the lower east side - which looks nice, not all shitty like the downtown warehouse - so Warren and Joyce wouldn't think anything off by going there) and giving Mary Jane a false vision - which could possibly happen when they steal baby May via the Brain Wash machine, right?. It's believable she'd be knocked out at that time. This also kind of lines up with everyone being able to fight on top of a bridge and even grab her legs - in pitch black. Sure they could have special tech - but ... Alternative is Gwen being killed at night, and Goblin being killed in the morning, at sunrise - and we just forgive some of the extra little details... which still fits the proposal. Really the only thing being argued is Goblin had enough time in 121 to go to a close location and swap out Gwen - in panels that aren't shared - which is totally doable with the technology and timetables that are shown - the rest all happens in the background of the established issues with some backstory being added ...and gives more respect to the original story detail than Sins did That may actually be a stronger case - as finding them would take longer at night than during the day.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 22:16:30 GMT
I don't think Conway put as much thought into this story as you have! LOL #121 title "the night Gwen Stacy died" and yet #122 appears to show things at the bridge happening during the daytime! Let's just say that it was bad background coloring choices on the part of the colorist! Going to reality, I know that coloring technology at that time was pretty inadequate. From what I understand, the Hulk was originally supposed to be grey, but the coloring technology was so bad that he kept on coming out different colors, so they made him green to fix the problem! This may have been the problem with the inconsistency of the coloring in the background of #122. As I mentioned in an earlier post (don't ask me what thread, because there are so many regarding trying to resolve all the issues in bring Gwen back) a flow chart would help in creating an outline for this story. After skimming over #122 again, I'm going to say that the events in #122 happened somewhere between 7:00pm and say, 2:00am. However, this might have to be modified in order to get things to line up with Clone Saga, Osborn's resurrection and Sins Past. Like I said, a flow chart would be helpful! (this is why I am willing to consider just bringing an "uncorrupted" Gwen over from an alternate universe! We get the Gwen we want, but don't have to worry about resolving all this Sins Past and Clone crap!) The bridge scene, spread over issues 121 and 122, do seem to take place during the day, but I don't think it was past the coloring technologies of the time, just a question of using the wrong palette. The Hulk, was a different case, were they indeed had some printing problems. A flowchart? I guess it would be a good idea, but a lot of work Phil?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 22:35:52 GMT
My logic is that you have to have a solid reason for Warren, Norman and Goblin to want/need her - and two of those folks don't have the Spiderman connection yet. They need to have interlocking motivations. Warren is a man of science at this point - she gets on his radar by being the only viable sample that progresses his work in the very early stage. If the sample size is small, that's not too coincidental (i.e. 1 in 3 students, plus his and Janice's DNA). This discrepancy can be a small anomoly that Warren believes he can overcome in time, clone disintegration, and allows him to move forward to proof of concept. This explains why the Gwen clone from 144 and this Gwen clone are the only ones that don't disintegrate. (after being shot, and after the check on the body 2 years later). When Norman volenteers himself for cloning - Warren can discover what he is, leading to his need to go. This is also why Peter shouldn't be in the original samples, because his sample would be as weird as Osborne's. If his memories are wiped, part of why he fixates on her as special may be him knowing the lab results - but not having the memories on why, and that gets translated in his "new brain" as romantic interest. Norman just cares about getting the results quickly - he overestimated his abilities before in creating Goblin serum, leading to an accident. He wipes Warren and Joyce, and is ok with it - becasue he has a Gwen clone, the Brain wash machine (and to a lessor extent - the serum). He finds out he can't move forward with a pure Osborn clone - because without Warren - all clones other than Gwen disintergate almost immediately and his Goblin blood messes up the process. Also - clone DNA is just different enough (as mentioned in later stories) that the brainwash machine doesn't work on clones (no super clone army for Norman, no memory for the clone). To Norman, Gwen is just a means to an end. He knows at this point, he'll need to use Warren's work as a base for his own, and has a straight path forward ... once the disintegration path is overcome through researching Gwen's DNA and creating Gwen/Osborne hybrid strains that produce the desired trait. Joyce is zapped to forget Warren, help Osborn, continue her work (she's worked with Warren and is smart), ask no questions, and talk to no one. When the Goblin pops up - he knows of the stalled experiment, the clone with no memory, the research on Gwen (pointing to the Peter and Harry connection) and that Peter Parker is Spiderman. He'd also know Norman was working with Joyce, and knew they were close to moving forward. At this point - Harry is a lost cause as an heir; and Gobby has no such reservations grabbing her to hurt Spiderman and move things forward. Joyce keeps working in the lab up until the twins are ready, and wouldn't bat an eye when Gwen is dropped off, she could still be working there well after Norman has given up on the place. Part of the reason the twins are a bit messed up is because Joyce and Norman made them - not Warren. The memories thing is awful - but the hypnosis was to recover the memories and make her loyal to Warren. At this point - we stop at the clones don't have their memories. Warren can figure out fixing that later - it makes sense in an iterative process this would be the norm. Norman wouldn't care about that - because he thinks he can program whatever he wants into their head with the Brain Wash machine. He wants perfect bodies. To my knowledge there is no continuity conflicts in the above passages. In my last long post, I was trying exactly that, to give a plausible motivation to every character involved, for doing the things in the "script". The coincidence may not be astronomical, but it's not 1 out of 3, they took samples from "the entire class". Even if using "hypnosis", Miles was recovering memories, how can a fresh cone have memories to recover? He'd be fabricating them, like the ones they gave the replicants, in Blade Runner.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 14, 2015 22:41:01 GMT
If what I posted about everyone's motivations lines up, and we can adopt Oz's narrative - the only missing pieces are discovering the lair (I think its the first place Norman goes to on the lower east side - which looks nice, not all shitty like the downtown warehouse - so Warren and Joyce wouldn't think anything off by going there) and giving Mary Jane a false vision - which could possibly happen when they steal baby May via the Brain Wash machine, right?. It's believable she'd be knocked out at that time. The location of the lair should accommodate the route he took, explaining why he chose the bridge, in terms of proximity, rather than Washington being Osborn's favorite president. I like the timing you chose, for the MJ brainwashing.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 22:53:49 GMT
My logic is that you have to have a solid reason for Warren, Norman and Goblin to want/need her - and two of those folks don't have the Spiderman connection yet. They need to have interlocking motivations. Warren is a man of science at this point - she gets on his radar by being the only viable sample that progresses his work in the very early stage. If the sample size is small, that's not too coincidental (i.e. 1 in 3 students, plus his and Janice's DNA). This discrepancy can be a small anomoly that Warren believes he can overcome in time, clone disintegration, and allows him to move forward to proof of concept. This explains why the Gwen clone from 144 and this Gwen clone are the only ones that don't disintegrate. (after being shot, and after the check on the body 2 years later). When Norman volenteers himself for cloning - Warren can discover what he is, leading to his need to go. This is also why Peter shouldn't be in the original samples, because his sample would be as weird as Osborne's. If his memories are wiped, part of why he fixates on her as special may be him knowing the lab results - but not having the memories on why, and that gets translated in his "new brain" as romantic interest. Norman just cares about getting the results quickly - he overestimated his abilities before in creating Goblin serum, leading to an accident. He wipes Warren and Joyce, and is ok with it - becasue he has a Gwen clone, the Brain wash machine (and to a lessor extent - the serum). He finds out he can't move forward with a pure Osborn clone - because without Warren - all clones other than Gwen disintergate almost immediately and his Goblin blood messes up the process. Also - clone DNA is just different enough (as mentioned in later stories) that the brainwash machine doesn't work on clones (no super clone army for Norman, no memory for the clone). To Norman, Gwen is just a means to an end. He knows at this point, he'll need to use Warren's work as a base for his own, and has a straight path forward ... once the disintegration path is overcome through researching Gwen's DNA and creating Gwen/Osborne hybrid strains that produce the desired trait. Joyce is zapped to forget Warren, help Osborn, continue her work (she's worked with Warren and is smart), ask no questions, and talk to no one. When the Goblin pops up - he knows of the stalled experiment, the clone with no memory, the research on Gwen (pointing to the Peter and Harry connection) and that Peter Parker is Spiderman. He'd also know Norman was working with Joyce, and knew they were close to moving forward. At this point - Harry is a lost cause as an heir; and Gobby has no such reservations grabbing her to hurt Spiderman and move things forward. Joyce keeps working in the lab up until the twins are ready, and wouldn't bat an eye when Gwen is dropped off, she could still be working there well after Norman has given up on the place. Part of the reason the twins are a bit messed up is because Joyce and Norman made them - not Warren. The memories thing is awful - but the hypnosis was to recover the memories and make her loyal to Warren. At this point - we stop at the clones don't have their memories. Warren can figure out fixing that later - it makes sense in an iterative process this would be the norm. Norman wouldn't care about that - because he thinks he can program whatever he wants into their head with the Brain Wash machine. He wants perfect bodies. To my knowledge there is no continuity conflicts in the above passages. In my last long post, I was trying exactly that, to give a plausible motivation to every character involved, for doing the things in the "script". The coincidence may not be astronomical, but it's not 1 out of 3, they took samples from "the entire class". Even if using "hypnosis", Miles was recovering memories, how can a fresh cone have memories to recover? He'd be fabricating them, like the ones they gave the replicants, in Blade Runner. No no - I mean he only had 3 samples from students instead of 30; maybe he got them from his lab helpers or from an extra credit assignment. There are others out in the population, it's not super rare - but given only 1 sample out of 6 in his first batch was viable - he moved forward to proof of concept, and planned to work on it later ... but got brain jacked by Norman before that could happen. This defect carries through to his later work as well. It's done out of convenience, and puts a mark on her the others have to follow. Norman would try and science out a solution, which takes time, including finding a new "legitimate" DNA sample to run countless more tests, isolating the trigger and mapping that to a pure Norman... Goblin would just grab her and push his agenda forward quickly... I agree with you, the clones would be blanks...memories aren't written and stored to DNA... the story is garbage...but it's what we have to work with. For our purposes it simply means the brain washer doesn't work and they remain blank because Warren hasn't progressed that far yet.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 23:02:06 GMT
If what I posted about everyone's motivations lines up, and we can adopt Oz's narrative - the only missing pieces are discovering the lair (I think its the first place Norman goes to on the lower east side - which looks nice, not all shitty like the downtown warehouse - so Warren and Joyce wouldn't think anything off by going there) and giving Mary Jane a false vision - which could possibly happen when they steal baby May via the Brain Wash machine, right?. It's believable she'd be knocked out at that time. The location of the lair should accommodate the route he took, explaining why he chose the bridge, in terms of proximity, rather than Washington being Osborn's favorite president. I like the timing you chose, for the MJ brainwashing. Manhattan is so small (14mi x 3mi) and the Goblin can move so fast, it can really be anywhere on the island...and if it's a place named in the actual book, you can't argue it doesn't exist or all lairs have been found. He may of purposefully flew in Peter's path once leaving to ensure he'd find him at the top of the bridge. The problem with using the warehouse - is it's described as being decrepit .. which works great for the Goblin, but Warren and Joyce think it's a legit operation. Moving it after their gone would be rough - as you've got a LOT of equipment, no Warren to set it back up, and a girl in a jar. Doable ... but rough. You don't see a lot of the lower east side place, but a drawing - it could pass for an oscorp off site location. It may even be an oversite, as it's similar looking to the warehouse, but is named in a different place and has an awning. It may be on the books at oscorp (didn't come up on Robbie's title search) but abandoned, marked contaminated, hidden, etc. Joyce could be on the payroll as the manager of the site. It could come to light through Eminent Domain, Joyce dying, some Oscorp VP wondering what goes on at that site and showing up. Thought threading through something special could explain why 2 of her bodies didn't disintegrate, but everyone else did.
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Post by vixx on Jun 14, 2015 23:21:19 GMT
This is new - fairly solid. Warren is a teacher with radical ideas on how human cloning can benefit humanity. Warren pitches Osborn on cloning. Osborn agrees to fund his research - motivated by military angle and later, his own legacy. A private lab is established, Warren gets to work with the help of his lab assistant. Warren meets Gwen, and they strike up a banter over science talk. She helps during labtime.
Warren runs experiments, making progress. Warrens gets a sample of DNA. (Piece of gum, class project, cut herself on a broken beaker...etc)Warren's experiments escalate, he settles on using Gwen's DNAWarren (and assistant) create a perfect looking Gwen clone, but her mind is blank. They clean up the lab, and share their findings with Norman. Notes: ASM 31 focuses on Peter, but the teacher, university - have been there all along. There is a section in the original clone series of how they come out of the tank , and have to have their memories recovered through hypnosis. Gwen could have taken an early start program, volenteered during the summer, etc. very common for science majors. This makes her known to Warren out of a big university class - not in detail and gives a chance to collect her DNA
We meet his assistant - who will be come the custodian Norman may think of cloning as a way to get the military interested in his rejected serum. Using it and the brainwash machine on clones makes super soldiers. If he can accomplish this without Stromm - he could lessen his reliance on him or push him out.
I think at this point it's just Norman the businessman funding research. I do think there needs to be a reason to use Gwen's DNA - either Warren has had problems with other samples, and hers works becasue of age, some genetic predisposition, etc. Nothing perverted, just want to get rid of why he wouldn't use his own, and resrt to getting it secretly from his student. Think he discovers this in the test tube phase - before moving on to the machinery. If she's a lab helper or friendly with him about his passion - it's more believable that out of all his students, she's the one he uses. The military angle sounds too much like Ultimate Green Goblin, Norman didn't need all this to push Stromm out, because he already did that before becoming the GG. I think he would just approach it as a way to reach immortality. Such an idea may not have crossed the mind of businessman Osborn, but after the lab accident that turned him into the GG, it makes sense. The business interest (involving the military angle if you want) would just be a sales pitch, to get Warren's partnership. The way I see it, Miles gives a conference on cloning, and Norman is the one to approach Miles, not the other way around. Human cloning stands on dubious moral/legal ground, so maybe having the military as a goal (even a fake one), could be a way to get a university professor, to agree on its research. After succeeding with animal cloning, Norman insists on being taken as the first subject for human cloning, this fails because of the Goblin Serum. Warren suggests to try with his students' DNA, although he would only provide clones without higher brain function. Osborn, frustrated, agrees. The samples are obtained, as seen in ASM #148 (flashback). After ASM #40, the Green Goblin is forgotten, but the clone project keeps going, Norman now sees it purely as a business. In ASM# 62, the brainwashing machine is damaged, but Osborn assigns its repair to Winkler's team. Around ASM #66, Norman, now in the GG persona, checks the status of the clone project, the clones are maturing nicely, but Warren refuses to continue without government approval (which doesn't exist). Norman brainwashes him to forget about the human cloning, disposes of the "brainless" clones, but keeps the Gwen one, for when its ready. The lab is cleaned of all the equipment/notes, that indicate how far the project went, but is left under Warren's "control", as an attempt to keep appearances. The Gwen clone, along with the majority of the most advanced equipment, is relocated under the supervision of Warren's assistant (Norman's accomplice). We now jump to ASM #97, after a brief battle with Spider-Man, the GG leaves him for dead and re-evaluates his goals. If he can't achieve immortality, he will at least secure a better progeny. He plans on using his own sperm, and chooses Gwen as the "mother", because her female DNA, is the only one at hand, that has any symbolic value. It also amuses him, what the heck. Warren's assistant admits he can't do it alone, but he has access to the old lab, which Warren is still programmed to attend sporadically, and if need be, Winkler's machine can be used again, to reprogram Miles and help him out. This is where the repeated brainwashing, will damage Warren's psyche. By the time of TNGSD, her clone will be fully matured, Warren will be over the edge and the twins will be ready to travel. I like this - need to get it into an outline and weave a couple of threads together.
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Post by vixx on Jun 15, 2015 0:28:58 GMT
Draft outline
Norman sets up a lab for Warren and Joyce as an OsCorp offsite - top secret location, high clearance. Unknown to all, the site doubles as a goblin lair (or it's near one of the two lairs mentioned - missed by the police and not listed under Norman's ownership) Warren gets to work, progressing through animal cloning rapidly Norman tries to be the first human clone, but the results are off the charts type weird Warren notes it as something unexpected to investigate (no human clones to compare it to), Norman is concerned of being discovered but moves ahead After meeting with Norman - they settle on using random DNA from students Warren can get by offering an tough extra credit assignment in his class - ensuring only the "best" students participate Gwen in one of the students that does the assignment. Peter is too busy being spidey, doesn't finish. Preliminary testing on humans is positive - all but Gwen's sample have a problem with disintegration issues. Warren moves forward with Gwen, and grows a full blown clone. Warren confirms the disintegration in humans is caused through a genetic variation between animals and humans - but Gwen has something unknown that doesn't trigger it. Warren compares osborn and stacy test results - secretly wonders what the hell is wrong with Osborn to produce such bizzare results. Wonders about his benefactor. Norman has the place bugged, and learns about Warren's findings. The Gwen clone is done, but is blank. It never leaves the machine. Norman knows about Brain washing machine, keeps it to himself. Warren shares his findings on disolving clones - sharing that a solution ultimately will be found in isolating the sequence from Gwen, and splicing it into future attempts. Noting it's a small, fairly simple deviation (1%), "an uncommon trait in a small percentage of the population that miss stacy exhibits" but progress will take time - more focused on working on the memory issues. This pisses Osborn off - he wants it now, and a "pure" clone. Osborn - having looked into the girl - begrudgingly accepts this after Harry drops acid. Osborn and Warren clashes, escalate. Warren learns more about goblin blood. Warren and Joyce are subdued, then brainwashed and given a plan to develop fully functional Gwen/Norman clones as top priority. Gwen clone takes a backseat, being monitored for any signs of disintegration (none materialize) Research / test tube / blueprinting Work continues. Warren & Joyce work to create the normal/Gwen lines. More of Gwen's material is needed than expected (cultured in lab from original blood sample), to overcome the Goblin blood, leading to a 50/50 hybrid. Osborne zaps Warren and Joyce again, cleans up the lab. Warren is sent to be a teacher, to valuable to kill. Joyce is left to run the lab and keep working on the hybrid clones. Gwen clone is preserved, as a long term study in disintegration (plus it's still in the machine). Hybrid clones are growing, then are complete. Osborne learns the Brain Wash machine doesn't work the same on clones (mimics accelerated growth memories) Harry drops acid again (or Norman slips him a hot dose / poison) Norman cracks - Goblin grabs Gwen to hurt Spiderman and ensure he can make more perfect clones.
Question: Why wouldn't Osborn use the Brain Wash machine on Harry to create the son he wants? Druggie brain couldn't handle it?
There is an option here - Joyce can die because of the mind wipe. The curator could be a clone - an early attempt version, so not perfect. Could be a Warren clone - either pre or post mind wipe. He'd be cool with jar Gwen, goblins, pumpkin bombs, the Loch Ness monster , whatever
His death, and turning into goo, could be what leads police to find the lair and what Peter recognizes.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 15, 2015 9:51:42 GMT
The military angle sounds too much like Ultimate Green Goblin, Norman didn't need all this to push Stromm out, because he already did that before becoming the GG. I think he would just approach it as a way to reach immortality. Such an idea may not have crossed the mind of businessman Osborn, but after the lab accident that turned him into the GG, it makes sense. The business interest (involving the military angle if you want) would just be a sales pitch, to get Warren's partnership. The way I see it, Miles gives a conference on cloning, and Norman is the one to approach Miles, not the other way around. Human cloning stands on dubious moral/legal ground, so maybe having the military as a goal (even a fake one), could be a way to get a university professor, to agree on its research. After succeeding with animal cloning, Norman insists on being taken as the first subject for human cloning, this fails because of the Goblin Serum. Warren suggests to try with his students' DNA, although he would only provide clones without higher brain function. Osborn, frustrated, agrees. The samples are obtained, as seen in ASM #148 (flashback). After ASM #40, the Green Goblin is forgotten, but the clone project keeps going, Norman now sees it purely as a business. In ASM# 62, the brainwashing machine is damaged, but Osborn assigns its repair to Winkler's team. Around ASM #66, Norman, now in the GG persona, checks the status of the clone project, the clones are maturing nicely, but Warren refuses to continue without government approval (which doesn't exist). Norman brainwashes him to forget about the human cloning, disposes of the "brainless" clones, but keeps the Gwen one, for when its ready. The lab is cleaned of all the equipment/notes, that indicate how far the project went, but is left under Warren's "control", as an attempt to keep appearances. The Gwen clone, along with the majority of the most advanced equipment, is relocated under the supervision of Warren's assistant (Norman's accomplice). We now jump to ASM #97, after a brief battle with Spider-Man, the GG leaves him for dead and re-evaluates his goals. If he can't achieve immortality, he will at least secure a better progeny. He plans on using his own sperm, and chooses Gwen as the "mother", because her female DNA, is the only one at hand, that has any symbolic value. It also amuses him, what the heck. Warren's assistant admits he can't do it alone, but he has access to the old lab, which Warren is still programmed to attend sporadically, and if need be, Winkler's machine can be used again, to reprogram Miles and help him out. This is where the repeated brainwashing, will damage Warren's psyche. By the time of TNGSD, her clone will be fully matured, Warren will be over the edge and the twins will be ready to travel. I like this - need to get it into an outline and weave a couple of threads together. I thought you had already read this, can I assume you've now integrated what is interesting, into your draft?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 15, 2015 10:12:14 GMT
Warren shares his findings on disolving clones - sharing that a solution ultimately will be found in isolating the sequence from Gwen, and splicing it into future attempts. Noting it's a small, fairly simple deviation (1%), "an uncommon trait in a small percentage of the population that miss stacy exhibits" but progress will take time - more focused on working on the memory issues. This pisses Osborn off - he wants it now, and a "pure" clone. Question: Why wouldn't Osborn use the Brain Wash machine on Harry to create the son he wants? Druggie brain couldn't handle it? The retcon should fix that which can be fixed, that which needs fixing, and only that which is necessary for the fix. Anything else we add, will lead to potential problems. In this case, getting into all this technical explanations, as to why Gwen's DNA was special and why some clones dissolved but not all, this will lead to people questioning things without end. For example, it's not clear at all if any clone Warren's ever produced, doesn't dissolve after death. Naming the assistant Joyce, would also lead to confusion, because the name was already used. I think keeping it as simple as possible, which can't be too simple, is our best ticket. I was also going to suggest, that Norman would likely try using the brainwashing machine on Harry, to "man him up", but I was waiting until we had everything better outlined. This would be a way to retcon, what was a silly change in direction for the character, but not related to the primary goal. I think Conway really slipped when he decided to make Harry, the man in the shadows (in ASM #122), He was suffering from a severe case of withdrawal syndrome, so it stretches credibility he would be calmly resting against a wall, hands in pocket. A brainwashed Harry could easily have been instructed, to meet his father there, to accept his legacy, and proceed as he was later described to operate. Subsequent behavior, could be explained by "druggie brain couldn't handle it".
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Post by vixx on Jun 15, 2015 15:37:42 GMT
Warren shares his findings on disolving clones - sharing that a solution ultimately will be found in isolating the sequence from Gwen, and splicing it into future attempts. Noting it's a small, fairly simple deviation (1%), "an uncommon trait in a small percentage of the population that miss stacy exhibits" but progress will take time - more focused on working on the memory issues. This pisses Osborn off - he wants it now, and a "pure" clone. Question: Why wouldn't Osborn use the Brain Wash machine on Harry to create the son he wants? Druggie brain couldn't handle it? The retcon should fix that which can be fixed, that which needs fixing, and only that which is necessary for the fix. Anything else we add, will lead to potential problems. In this case, getting into all this technical explanations, as to why Gwen's DNA was special and why some clones dissolved but not all, this will lead to people questioning things without end. For example, it's not clear at all if any clone Warren's ever produced, doesn't dissolve after death. Naming the assistant Joyce, would also lead to confusion, because the name was already used. I think keeping it as simple as possible, which can't be too simple, is our best ticket. I was also going to suggest, that Norman would likely try using the brainwashing machine on Harry, to "man him up", but I was waiting until we had everything better outlined. This would be a way to retcon, what was a silly change in direction for the character, but not related to the primary goal. I think Conway really slipped when he decided to make Harry, the man in the shadows (in ASM #122), He was suffering from a severe case of withdrawal syndrome, so it stretches credibility he would be calmly resting against a wall, hands in pocket. A brainwashed Harry could easily have been instructed, to meet his father there, to accept his legacy, and proceed as he was later described to operate. Subsequent behavior, could be explained by "druggie brain couldn't handle it". I read it previously pulled in and combined it Agree that minimal things should be introduced - but one thing we have to introduce the ability for perfect clones as an anomaly - as Gwen's corpse is real, didn't dissolve on the bridge at death, and is still around 2 years later - they checked her grave when the clone showed up when her fingerprints matched records. Robbie kind of told Peter about it very tactfully, but can only be an exhumation - SOP for the police if a missing person showed up that was thought dead ... And the Gwen clone that was shot didn't dissolve in panel (which was lucky) - so I ran with it. A fake body or changing records won't work, and it helps explain the twins being hybrids scientifically. The plus is that makes Gwen special - and once that's discovered in the lab, is motivation why everyone fixates on her outside of her connection to Spiderman , think it's a strong point. Don't think she should be so special she's the only one the planet ... but special enough that finding another person would be a massive pain in the ass... The detail is higher in this outline - so you can see my thoughts and beat them up ... Need to be able to defend that point of attack. The splicing is inline, not perfect, with how that stuff is actually done - talked with some friends in the field. The closest, mainstream examples would be GMO food - where they combine elements to make unique strains of food (the soybean Montasano makes, Jurassic Park, or how some people with HIV never develop AIDS, for example). I like the idea the Gwen clones are perfect, but all the others aren't - and Warren identifies it, and makes progress - but never quite figures it out. Gives him something hard to work on - and him making "progress" on this is referenced a couple of times. If he knows perfection is possible - explains why he doesn't just give it all up once he had his Gwen clone wife. I thought Harry's second acid trip would be better explained as Norman reprogramming him and it really making him sick; its a better story than drugs, especially LSD - it's more believable. Acid doesn't work the way they describe - there is no withdrawl, and unless he dropped fistfuls - he would be fine the next day. They basically have him kicking heroin, and turning into a bad person who stays crazy.... which is very 1960's "just say no", but doesn't explain why he turns into Mini-Norman vs. a broken version of Harry. Don't say Goblin blood - I'll scream... so sick of that explanation If "Joyce" doesn't survive it the first time and Warren cracks later...it's reasonable Harry would have some effects...it's needs to be portrayed a serious procedure, not a trip the day spa like in the kingpin story. Norman didn't goblin out the first time Harry dropped acid, but did this time...figure he feels guilty and worried he might have damaged his only heir (plus his financial interests are taking a hit - but even then, 13% isn't that bad...the markets do that in an afternoon these days). I like how you explain his personality transformation - Norman could program what he sees as his best traits, plus "if anything ever happens to me, avenge me" as part of that. He handled the whole my dad is a super villan who killed a friend / girl I dated pretty well lol Joyce's name can be anything, grabbed onto it because it's never been explained - and if the robot thing is reading his mind - they might see fragments of what got zapped and roll it into a single narrative. There is some contradictory details there - like instantanious cloning being referenced while the original story takes about 6 to 8 weeks. Think we are very, very close to a believable draft, and it's pretty strong. Also think the timeline works better at night. Tossing out the color and maybe a couple of minor art details - she dies at night, the go through until the next day and goblin dies after sunrise. The cops are pulling out his body on the morning shift and the newspaper story is the late edition. Harry is just a magical creature that can get into a crime scene and out in broad daylight with a glider, costume, change of clothes and whatever weapons were around .. but we don't need to explain that. I wonder how the coroner explained having his heart shredded by a blade and the high speed impact .. *rolls eyes* I know Gwen has brothers - how does this change them? Which is better - the custodian is a clone or a real person? I'm partial to the imperfect clone angle, as it eliminates any family or outside connections, and a Warren clone would know how to work on the machines... frank the janitor may be loyal, but he wouldn't have the first clue what to do. The assistant could do it - but a female needs to die to escalate Norman and preserve the dialouge at the end of 122. If its a clone that ran the place, but it died in the lab (picture a grease spot at a desk) - so it's been unattended for a while...it would explain why Aunt May's double was an actress - there was no one left that knew how to use the equipment or it's beyond repair due to neglect (gwen's chamber is in tact if she's still in it), but the idea survives because grabbing people and replacing them worked before.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 15, 2015 17:53:27 GMT
Agree that minimal things should be introduced - but one thing we have to introduce the ability for perfect clones - as the Gwen corpse is still around 2 years later - they checked her grave when the clone showed up and her fingerprints matched - that can really only be an exhumation ... And the Gwen clone that was shot didn't dissolve in panel - so I ran with it. The plus is that makes Gwen special - and once that's discovered in the lab, is motivation why everyone fixates on her outside of her connection to Spiderman , think it's a strong point. Don't think she should be so special she's the only one the planet ... but special enough that finding another person would be a pain in the ass... The detail is higher in this outline - so you can see my thoughts and beat them up ... Need to be able to defend that point of attack. The splicing is inline, not perfect, with how that stuff is actually done - talked with some friends in the field. The closest, mainstream examples would be GMO food - where they combine elements to make unique strains of food (the soybean Montasano makes or how some people with HIV never get AIDS, for example). I like the idea the Gwen clones are perfect, but all the others aren't - and Warren identifies it, and makes progress - but never quite figures it out. Gives him something hard to work on - and him making "progress" on this is referenced a couple of times. If he knows perfection is possible - explains why he doesn't just give it all up once he had his Gwen clone wife. I thought Harry's second acid trip would be better explained as Norman reprogramming him and it really making him sick, and its a better cover story than drugs - it's more believable. Acid doesn't work the way they describe - this is bolstered if "Joyce" doesn't survive it the first time. Norman didn't flip out the first time he dropped acid, but did this time...figure he feels guilty (plus his financial interests are taking a hit - but even then, 13% isn't that bad...the markets do that in an afternoon these days). There is some contradictory details there - like instantanious cloning being referenced while the original story takes about 6 to 8 weeks. I know Gwen has brothers - how does this change them? Which is better - the custodian is a clone or a real person? I'm partial to the imperfect clone angle, as it eliminates any family or outside connections, and a Warren clone would know how to work on the machines... frank the janitor may be loyal, but he wouldn't have the first clue what to do. The assistant could do it - but a female needs to die to escalate Norman and preserve the dialouge at the end of 122. If its a clone that ran the place, but it died in the lab (picture a grease spot at a desk) - so it's been unattended for a while...it would explain why Aunt May's double was an actress - there was no one left that knew how to use the equipment, but the idea survives ebcasue it worked before. If we're using a brainless clone for the bridge, it wasn't exactly "perfect". It was the culmination of Warren's untampered work, and it was achieved with all of his student's DNA, according to my script. The job he's forced to do much later, via brainwash, would be different, producing fully operational clones with the small defect of the dissolving upon death issue. Apples and oranges. As for "the Gwen clone that was shot didn't dissolve in panel", that was ambiguous, I would ignore it for the purpose of this retcon. We conceptually disagree on this, I think Gwen was special without any rare genetic condition, or without spider powers for that matter That's also why I avoided, her being targeted by everyone, a result of them all being fixated on her. I prefer to make up a different explanation for every case. Ok, if you're ready to give and defend a detailed and technical plot, in reference to the progress of Warren's cloning research, be my guest (as long as it doesn't make Gwen special). But brace yourself when you present it at the CBR forum, lots of angry MJ fans there. One problem, though, Harry was sick before Norman relapsed. Who reprogramed his son then? The exact quote was "nearly instantaneous", "nearly" being the operative word. She had cousins. I still prefer a real person, following the lines I described in my first draft, for this part of the story. I haven't figured out how to include the bit about "a female needs to die" yet.
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