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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 10:36:15 GMT
While combing the various threads, about how to bring Gwen back, I came across this proposal from Drew, based on a previous one (inserted as a quote by me), based on one David made over at CBR: Just to make sure, I went back and read #149 again, and there is still room for applying a modification to canon along similar lines to my original proposal. Here's my change to my original proposal: Warren had tissue samples of Gwen BEFORE #121 and there is no reference that I can find as to exactly WHEN those tissue samples were taken, so they could easily have been taken in the time frame associated with Sins Past. Warren can STILL have worked for Norman and this is where SOME of his cloning research began. I will say that Warren didn't have to KNOW that he made a successful clone of Gwen. Perhaps in doing the research for Norman, Norman learned enough to do the cloning himself. He steals tissue samples of Gwen from Warren and creates the clone himself, THEN replaces Gwen with the clone. Warren is none the wiser, but there is now a Gwen clone out there for Norman's nefarious purposes. Warren didn't realize at the time that he had stumbled upon a successful cloning procedure, because Norman led him to believe that his experiments working for him were failures. From this point we can continue with my proposal as I presented.
OK getting back to how to bring Gwen back, here's my new proposal. Warren and Norman had a connection before #121. Let's say Norman was funding Warren's clone research. Warren had samples of Gwen's tissue and had made a clone which Norman said had died but he in fact had kept her as an experiment for himself. He impregnated the clone, then kidnapped Gwen and sent the clone out with the “memory” that they had had sex. Everything goes along as is depicted in the comics, but the clone ends up dying in #121 not Gwen. Gwen is held prisoner by Norman until modern day. (There will need to be a lot of filler material in here) Somehow she escapes and comes back to Peter. This is kind of lame. There needs to be more complications in the plot, but it takes away Sins Past and brings back the REAL Gwen in modern day. Any suggestions to make it better are welcome. I ALSO went back and checked out #61 and if we are going to stick to canon, then this would be good to add to the story. Coincidentally, the short-lived Spectactular Spider-man Magazine came out, and in 1968 SSM #2, right around the time of #61 came out with a story about the Green Goblin! It actually looks like a logical insertion in the Spidey timeline. After #61, Norman was on shaky mental ground, and this SSM story follows right into this timeline. So during the events of THIS story, my story idea can be inserted right along with this Goblin story! This story is reprinted in ASM Annual #9, and if you check out the first page you will see that it is mentioned that it originally was in the SSM #2 magazine from 1968! It's almost as if they wrote it for me to use!!
So while Norman is in THIS Goblin moment he ALSO does all this stuff with Gwen and clones, and this new "modified" Sins Past, etc. THEN after he reverts back to Norman he forgets about all these things he's done, and things progress until #121 when Gwen's clone is killed at the bridge.
Not exactly what I had in mind, when all of this started, a year ago, but considering how bringing the character back in current MU continuity, is the most favored approach, I'm willing to go along with this and polish the edges. The main advantages it has, are: - It fits stablished continuity quite well. As well as it can be expected, considering that Spectacular Spider-Man #2 didn't get along, with ASM #61-66.
- It doesn't tarnish Warren's character more than necessary, pre-ASM #121.
- It leaves all the responsibility, for Sins Past, resting on Norman's shoulders alone.
The timing of the kidnapping could be improved, postponed to ASM #97. I also prefer the idea of Norman, fabricating all of the evidence for Sins Past, twins included, not making they the sons of a clone.
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 12:44:15 GMT
While combing the various threads, about how to bring Gwen back, I came across this proposal from Drew, based on a previous one (inserted as a quote by me), based on one David made over at CBR: Just to make sure, I went back and read #149 again, and there is still room for applying a modification to canon along similar lines to my original proposal. Here's my change to my original proposal: Warren had tissue samples of Gwen BEFORE #121 and there is no reference that I can find as to exactly WHEN those tissue samples were taken, so they could easily have been taken in the time frame associated with Sins Past. Warren can STILL have worked for Norman and this is where SOME of his cloning research began. I will say that Warren didn't have to KNOW that he made a successful clone of Gwen. Perhaps in doing the research for Norman, Norman learned enough to do the cloning himself. He steals tissue samples of Gwen from Warren and creates the clone himself, THEN replaces Gwen with the clone. Warren is none the wiser, but there is now a Gwen clone out there for Norman's nefarious purposes. Warren didn't realize at the time that he had stumbled upon a successful cloning procedure, because Norman led him to believe that his experiments working for him were failures. From this point we can continue with my proposal as I presented.
I ALSO went back and checked out #61 and if we are going to stick to canon, then this would be good to add to the story. Coincidentally, the short-lived Spectactular Spider-man Magazine came out, and in 1968 SSM #2, right around the time of #61 came out with a story about the Green Goblin! It actually looks like a logical insertion in the Spidey timeline. After #61, Norman was on shaky mental ground, and this SSM story follows right into this timeline. So during the events of THIS story, my story idea can be inserted right along with this Goblin story! This story is reprinted in ASM Annual #9, and if you check out the first page you will see that it is mentioned that it originally was in the SSM #2 magazine from 1968! It's almost as if they wrote it for me to use!!
So while Norman is in THIS Goblin moment he ALSO does all this stuff with Gwen and clones, and this new "modified" Sins Past, etc. THEN after he reverts back to Norman he forgets about all these things he's done, and things progress until #121 when Gwen's clone is killed at the bridge.
Not exactly what I had in mind, when all of this started, a year ago, but considering how bringing the character back in current MU continuity, is the most favored approach, I'm willing to go along with this and polish the edges. The main advantages it has, are: - It fits stablished continuity quite well. As well as it can be expected, considering that Spectacular Spider-Man #2 didn't get along, with ASM #61-66.
- It doesn't tarnish Warren's character more than necessary, pre-ASM #121.
- It leaves all the responsibility, for Sins Past, resting on Norman's shoulders alone.
The timing of the kidnapping could be improved, postponed to ASM #97. I also prefer the idea of Norman, fabricating all of the evidence for Sins Past, twins included, not making they the sons of a clone. #1 I would like a better story as well, but Sins Past is so insidious, it's the best I could come up with at that time and at least TRY to remain faithful to continuity. Yes, extensive polishing is necessary! #3 The kidnapping around #97 would be a great fit. It corresponds with Osborn reverting to his GG persona, and with Gwen's return. I was just thinking along these lines, that around #121 we could insert in the timeline that MJ got implanted with false memories about Gwen and Osborn. One thing that is good is this idea is no more incredulous than Sins Past or OMD, OMIT, and BND, so we are not stretching the limits of continuity.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 13:14:08 GMT
The way I conceive it, Osborn would first approach Warren, at the time you suggested, when he first relapsed into the GG persona. Some time would elapse, that allows for the clone and the babies to grow, for Gerhard Winkle's machine to be reconstructed too. Then, by the time of his second relapse, he'd come back to trick Warren, abduct Gwen, implant false memories in the clone and send the babies to Europe. After his "death", he'd brainwash MJ, forge the letter, fake the coroners report to include Joyce's fingerprints… That would leave known "facts" intact, but Gwen would be alive.
BTW, you forgot to include, in the list of "credible" story-lines, both Cone Sagas, Osborn's return, Ben Reilly's return, Warren's return… it goes on and on.
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 13:47:25 GMT
The way I conceive it, Osborn would first approach Warren, at the time you suggested, when he first relapsed into the GG persona. Some time would elapse, that allows for the clone and the babies to grow, for Gerhard Winkle's machine to be reconstructed too. Then, by the time of his second relapse, he'd come back to trick Warren, abduct Gwen, implant false memories in the clone and send the babies to Europe. After his "death", he'd brainwash MJ, forge the letter, fake the coroners report to include Joyce's fingerprints… That would leave known "facts" intact, but Gwen would be alive. BTW, you forgot to include, in the list of "credible" story-lines, both Cone Sagas, Osborn's return, Ben Reilly's return, Warren's return… it goes on and on. It was already retconned that the High Evolutionary had lied about Joyce and that the Gwen clone was actually a Gwen clone. All these details!! Like I said, Sins Past is very insidious! Trying to visualize all these details is getting difficult! Perhaps constructing a flow chart to get the timeline straight and then insert our details in there to make sure everything lines up. Here's another idea: In his second relapse instead of tricking Warren, he could implant false memories in Warren as well, although that might become somewhat trite. As for the list of incredulous storylines, please insert an "etc." after BND!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 14:02:33 GMT
For as long as the clone's real name remains "Joyce", in the Marvel Wikia Database, I'll keep calling it by that name. I don't even think there's an official stance, from Marvel, in this matter. I guess that, whoever were to write the story we're outlining, would get to decide how the clone came to be. Norman brainwashing Miles too? Yes! We could place all the blame on Osborn, the very existence of the Jackal could be completely his fault, and not just an unintended consequence. Now we're rolling
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 16:02:54 GMT
For as long as the clone's real name remains "Joyce", in the Marvel Wikia Database, I'll keep calling it by that name. I don't even think there's an official stance, from Marvel, in this matter. I guess that, whoever were to write the story we're outlining, would get to decide how the clone came to be. Norman brainwashing Miles too? Yes! We could place all the blame on Osborn, the very existence of the Jackal could be completely his fault, and not just an unintended consequence. Now we're rolling I guess it depends where you look. In Marvel.com Wiki, Wikipedia and Comic Vine as well as in the Clone Saga issues that I read (and remember) she is known as Gwen Miles. No surprise Marvel has no official stance after the clusterfuck of the Clone Sagas and PPSSM annual #8! I suppose after all the other stuff done in the Clone Sagas, one more brainwashing can't hurt! I am curious why you are so defensive about Miles? To me, he is no better, or worse, than Osborn. When Osborn wasn't in his GG persona he was a good guy, and it can be argued that Miles was mentally unbalanced, regarding Gwen, long before #121. Anyway, It's not that big a deal to me as long as Gwen comes back. I was just trying to find a way to resolve Sins Past using the Clone Saga as a means to an end. It gives a plausible (if that word can even be used!) way for Gwen to not have died and to retain her virtue as well as resolve several smaller details, like fingerprints. I kind of like the idea of the Jackal being an unintended consequence. Instead of Osborn being this perfect criminal mastermind, it could show him to not be able to predict the future, but to actually make SOME mistakes, but if you want Osborn to take all the blame, it's OK with me as long as it reads well.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 17:54:18 GMT
More than Miles himself, I'm defending an era. Both Sins Past, and the original Clone Saga, retroactively changed the way we look at those comics from the Silver Age (before ASM #121). Sins Past forces us to look at Gwen as a very different character, and her relationship with Peter also changes dramatically. The Clone Saga, gave a second meaning to every appearance Prof. Warren made, including his presence, chaperoning their first date. I agree with you, about Osborn being quite a different guy, in those days, we already agreed about it. But once you accept the character he's become, after his return, you can dump on him everything, alleviating the rest of the characters of guilt (at least pre-ASM #121). Also, if everything those tales related happening during the Silver Age, was actually a scam (fabricated memories implanted afterwards), it didn't happen, which leaves the Silver Age clean. As for an unintended consequence, I'd say the origin of the Jackal would be unintended, but we would be able to place the blame on Osborn. It would go like this: Norman would approach Miles, he would show him the facilities and they'd agree to work together. This would explain how a University professor, would have access to so much equipment. The problem of course, is that Osborn's goal need to be hidden from Warren, and by the time he'd realize, they'd brainwash him. This could happen on a daily basis, so he would function normally outside the project. In the long term, Miles would become unstable because of what was being done to him. As a parting gift, before leaving him the laboratory, Norman would perform a final brainwash, so there'd be no memory about his research at those facilities being a success, which is why he'd have to start over.
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 18:33:39 GMT
More than Miles himself, I'm defending an era. Both Sins Past, and the original Clone Saga, retroactively changed the way we look at those comics from the Silver Age (before ASM #121). Sins Past forces us to look at Gwen as a very different character, and her relationship with Peter also changes dramatically. The Clone Saga, gave a second meaning to every appearance Prof. Warren made, including his presence, chaperoning their first date. I agree with you, about Osborn being quite a different guy, in those days, we already agreed about it. But once you accept the character he's become, after his return, you can dump on him everything, alleviating the rest of the characters of guilt (at least pre-ASM #121). Also, if everything those tales related happening during the Silver Age, was actually a scam (fabricated memories implanted afterwards), it didn't happen, which leaves the Silver Age clean. As for an unintended consequence, I'd say the origin of the Jackal would be unintended, but we would be able to place the blame on Osborn. It would go like this: Norman would approach Miles, he would show him the facilities and they'd agree to work together. This would explain how a University professor, would have access to so much equipment. The problem of course, is that Osborn's goal need to be hidden from Warren, and by the time he'd realize, they'd brainwash him. This could happen on a daily basis, so he would function normally outside the project. In the long term, Miles would become unstable because of what was being done to him. As a parting gift, before leaving him the laboratory, Norman would perform a final brainwash, so there'd be no memory about his research at those facilities being a success, which is why he'd have to start over. Hmm. I can go along with most of what you have, but I have trouble with Warren having to start his research over. In the Clone Saga, there are a lot of details that Warren talks about that were prior to #121. Maybe he remembers working with Osborn, making some progress, but having his memories of success erased. He had laid a lot of groundwork in cloning prior to #121, so IMHO he would have to have some memory of that time, just not of success. I will say this however, the brainwashing could have screwed up his brain and be considered a factor in him finally going over the edge into insanity as well as Gwen's death. Also it wouldn't have to be strictly brainwashing but also the implantation of false memories that correspond with the story he tells Peter thus resolving some of the inconsistencies between The Clone Saga, Sins Past and what happened to Gwen after her supposed death.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 19:25:11 GMT
He couldn't have many memories of success, because right after ASM #121, he found the cloning of a frog to be "extremely interesting". We can say that whatever progress he made in the field, leading to that "groundbreaking achievement", were the only memories Osborn left him, so that all the time he spend in their joint project, wouldn't look suspiciously wasted, but even then, his success in cloning would be meager, compared to what he would actually have achieved, And yes, we're talking more of hypnosis, than brainwashing, but I guess that modifying Winkler's machine to that end, would be easier than developing a whole new one.
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 21:12:11 GMT
He couldn't have many memories of success, because right after ASM #121, he found the cloning of a frog to be "extremely interesting". We can say that whatever progress he made in the field, leading to that "groundbreaking achievement", were the only memories Osborn left him, so that all the time he spend in their joint project, wouldn't look suspiciously wasted, but even then, his success in cloning would be meager, compared to what he would actually have achieved, And yes, we're talking more of hypnosis, than brainwashing, but I guess that modifying Winkler's machine to that end, would be easier than developing a whole new one. In fact Warren could have helped with incorporating memory implantation into Winkler's machine. He obviously knew how to do it since he implanted memories in Gwen's clone and in Peter's clone/future Ben Reilly.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 21:42:01 GMT
That he did [sic].
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Post by vixx on Jul 6, 2016 16:15:52 GMT
For The Warren at ESU, cloning and his obsession with Gwen - think I've sprinkled my thoughts on a couple of threads - but I've never really given a detailed take - I do think the Warren that follows the clone saga isn't the silver age Warren I think it's reasonable it's a slowly decaying clone that may not have all his memories, but they do poke through and get interpreted in an odd fashion - explained in detail elsewhere - The decay is likely more than just disintegrating - it's likely a slow decline ( think of your brain melting like an ice cube in a chilly room) before it just can't hold together anymore. To explain him and unravel all the crap - it needs to be streamlined.. And I haven't developed an outline past 122. Think there really are just 2 rules - the crazy re-re-re retcon stuff is probally told through an incorrect perspective, and when possible basic logic and reasoning win out - think folks want this to get cleaned up so as long as it's not nuking the fridge and respects the era / charecters - they'll live with it The supporting cast is a good resource - you have people like Allison connected to Norman showing up, doing evil stuff, than disappearing - it's hard to believe they'd are new, hired helpers and get assigned such vital chores - there should he history there..and needing more than 3 people on a genetic project is guaranteed - they can do stuff without knowing the details...might even think its a legit Oscorp operation (might be - who knows?) So Alison (baby May) , Joyce (if she ever existed) and Serba should be loyal to Norman and keeping an eye on him, pushing research in the direction he wants it, and reporting back - I doubt they would mind wipe him, then just turn him lose without keeping an eye on him... too much is at stake, and they've never done that before Serba's death is likely caused by a decaying clone snaping and being paranoid - but it doesn't make Serba innocent. Warren may have discovered something. The Gwen clone (original) doesn't necessarily need to come from a separate process - she can, and likely, came from the the bigger project - likely to pacify a tweaked out Warren clone that sees her every day until she "dies" and feels stuff his brain can't process. If something outside their script were to happen with her, it could be a problem. While he understands cloning - even at a instinctive level; his equipment and timelines are a joke - even by high evolutionary standards. Osbirn could hear reports back from Serba , Joyce that he's hyper focused on Gwen, making some sort of costume, acting off and just falling apart - something Norman couldn't have at this stage, as Norman has long term plans - and they really aren't at a point where they can just crank out clones - things are a bit chaotic in the lab, and each clone is precious - especially the advanced ones. So once they have Gwen, they send a finished - yet strategically altered clone to his lab - 2 years? later. One they completed after grabbing Gwen. He loads up his milk can machine with cloning stuff, which may be fine for basic cloning - but no way to MacGuyer a perfect specimen created from that thing... there just isn't a way he can duplicate a multi billion dollar lab in a college chem lab and pull out memories with a crystal and some Enya CDs - Serba likely swaps it out with a real clone from the real program; not like it's like making microwave popcorn or he watches it 24/7. Serba (or someone else with access) knows about it, or at least has access to the original research and nudges Warren in the direction he wants. Warren believes he's invented instant cloning. Bonus - for the fingerprints to match, they'd need to come from an identical process. He recovers her memories through hypnosis - because they have already been duplicated and edited (missing time is an erasure) This pacifies him for a bit - until Serba is killed and he progresses in his meltdown. Heck - That Serba may be a clone and he's the one running the lab in Europe ... so many red shirts... The story has only been told from warrens point of view - which clearly is coming from a crazy place...and only reflects his version of events as he sees it. Alternatively - Once they get straightened up and crank out Warrens wholesale - it wouldn't be too much to replace ESU the Warren clone every so often, they are already doing it, and being able to pull in recent experiences to the master duplication profile would be a plus otherwise the collective experience of all the warren clones except the one at ESU stops at ASM 6x Haven't looked past 123 much - but it doesn't have to be disconnected or starting over - in fact that makes no sense If I remember the clone Gwen was always decent - even when she was working with the Jackal, she seemed drugged
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Post by dav on Jul 8, 2016 1:53:28 GMT
For The Warren at ESU, cloning and his obsession with Gwen - think I've sprinkled my thoughts on a couple of threads - but I've never really given a detailed take - I do think the Warren that follows the clone saga isn't the silver age Warren I think it's reasonable it's a slowly decaying clone that may not have all his memories, but they do poke through and get interpreted in an odd fashion - explained in detail elsewhere - The decay is likely more than just disintegrating - it's likely a slow decline ( think of your brain melting like an ice cube in a chilly room) before it just can't hold together anymore. To explain him and unravel all the crap - it needs to be streamlined.. And I haven't developed an outline past 122. Think there really are just 2 rules - the crazy re-re-re retcon stuff is probally told through an incorrect perspective, and when possible basic logic and reasoning win out - think folks want this to get cleaned up so as long as it's not nuking the fridge and respects the era / charecters - they'll live with it The supporting cast is a good resource - you have people like Allison connected to Norman showing up, doing evil stuff, than disappearing - it's hard to believe they'd are new, hired helpers and get assigned such vital chores - there should he history there..and needing more than 3 people on a genetic project is guaranteed - they can do stuff without knowing the details...might even think its a legit Oscorp operation (might be - who knows?) So Alison (baby May) , Joyce (if she ever existed) and Serba should be loyal to Norman and keeping an eye on him, pushing research in the direction he wants it, and reporting back - I doubt they would mind wipe him, then just turn him lose without keeping an eye on him... too much is at stake, and they've never done that before Serba's death is likely caused by a decaying clone snaping and being paranoid - but it doesn't make Serba innocent. Warren may have discovered something. The Gwen clone (original) doesn't necessarily need to come from a separate process - she can, and likely, came from the the bigger project - likely to pacify a tweaked out Warren clone that sees her every day until she "dies" and feels stuff his brain can't process. If something outside their script were to happen with her, it could be a problem. While he understands cloning - even at a instinctive level; his equipment and timelines are a joke - even by high evolutionary standards. Osbirn could hear reports back from Serba , Joyce that he's hyper focused on Gwen, making some sort of costume, acting off and just falling apart - something Norman couldn't have at this stage, as Norman has long term plans - and they really aren't at a point where they can just crank out clones - things are a bit chaotic in the lab, and each clone is precious - especially the advanced ones. So once they have Gwen, they send a finished - yet strategically altered clone to his lab - 2 years? later. One they completed after grabbing Gwen. He loads up his milk can machine with cloning stuff, which may be fine for basic cloning - but no way to MacGuyer a perfect specimen created from that thing... there just isn't a way he can duplicate a multi billion dollar lab in a college chem lab and pull out memories with a crystal and some Enya CDs - Serba likely swaps it out with a real clone from the real program; not like it's like making microwave popcorn or he watches it 24/7. Serba (or someone else with access) knows about it, or at least has access to the original research and nudges Warren in the direction he wants. Warren believes he's invented instant cloning. Bonus - for the fingerprints to match, they'd need to come from an identical process. He recovers her memories through hypnosis - because they have already been duplicated and edited (missing time is an erasure) This pacifies him for a bit - until Serba is killed and he progresses in his meltdown. Heck - That Serba may be a clone and he's the one running the lab in Europe ... so many red shirts... The story has only been told from warrens point of view - which clearly is coming from a crazy place...and only reflects his version of events as he sees it. Alternatively - Once they get straightened up and crank out Warrens wholesale - it wouldn't be too much to replace ESU the Warren clone every so often, they are already doing it, and being able to pull in recent experiences to the master duplication profile would be a plus otherwise the collective experience of all the warren clones except the one at ESU stops at ASM 6x Haven't looked past 123 much - but it doesn't have to be disconnected or starting over - in fact that makes no sense If I remember the clone Gwen was always decent - even when she was working with the Jackal, she seemed drugged A cloned Warren with implanted memories who is also the Jackal, would mean we could pretty much rewrite the first Clone Saga from #123-149 to suit our needs. None of what the Warren clone said would have to be accurate as they were implanted memories. We could have some way of Gwen surviving #121 and actually have live Gwen's DNA rather than an old sample used to make Joyce Delaney and that is why she was stable. This would also help with Ozy's desire to keep Warren from looking like a bad guy. Warren would still be good,more or less, but his clone would be screwed up, and of course the clone would have no memory of his time working with Norman and the story of how he alone cloned Gwen and Peter, etc. could be implanted. It could remain faithful to Spider-man canon but retcon the First Clone Saga without major damage to continuity and shoehorn our story in a lot easier.
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Post by vixx on Jul 14, 2016 5:13:26 GMT
For The Warren at ESU, cloning and his obsession with Gwen - think I've sprinkled my thoughts on a couple of threads - but I've never really given a detailed take - I do think the Warren that follows the clone saga isn't the silver age Warren I think it's reasonable it's a slowly decaying clone that may not have all his memories, but they do poke through and get interpreted in an odd fashion - explained in detail elsewhere - The decay is likely more than just disintegrating - it's likely a slow decline ( think of your brain melting like an ice cube in a chilly room) before it just can't hold together anymore. To explain him and unravel all the crap - it needs to be streamlined.. And I haven't developed an outline past 122. Think there really are just 2 rules - the crazy re-re-re retcon stuff is probally told through an incorrect perspective, and when possible basic logic and reasoning win out - think folks want this to get cleaned up so as long as it's not nuking the fridge and respects the era / charecters - they'll live with it The supporting cast is a good resource - you have people like Allison connected to Norman showing up, doing evil stuff, than disappearing - it's hard to believe they'd are new, hired helpers and get assigned such vital chores - there should he history there..and needing more than 3 people on a genetic project is guaranteed - they can do stuff without knowing the details...might even think its a legit Oscorp operation (might be - who knows?) So Alison (baby May) , Joyce (if she ever existed) and Serba should be loyal to Norman and keeping an eye on him, pushing research in the direction he wants it, and reporting back - I doubt they would mind wipe him, then just turn him lose without keeping an eye on him... too much is at stake, and they've never done that before Serba's death is likely caused by a decaying clone snaping and being paranoid - but it doesn't make Serba innocent. Warren may have discovered something. The Gwen clone (original) doesn't necessarily need to come from a separate process - she can, and likely, came from the the bigger project - likely to pacify a tweaked out Warren clone that sees her every day until she "dies" and feels stuff his brain can't process. If something outside their script were to happen with her, it could be a problem. While he understands cloning - even at a instinctive level; his equipment and timelines are a joke - even by high evolutionary standards. Osbirn could hear reports back from Serba , Joyce that he's hyper focused on Gwen, making some sort of costume, acting off and just falling apart - something Norman couldn't have at this stage, as Norman has long term plans - and they really aren't at a point where they can just crank out clones - things are a bit chaotic in the lab, and each clone is precious - especially the advanced ones. So once they have Gwen, they send a finished - yet strategically altered clone to his lab - 2 years? later. One they completed after grabbing Gwen. He loads up his milk can machine with cloning stuff, which may be fine for basic cloning - but no way to MacGuyer a perfect specimen created from that thing... there just isn't a way he can duplicate a multi billion dollar lab in a college chem lab and pull out memories with a crystal and some Enya CDs - Serba likely swaps it out with a real clone from the real program; not like it's like making microwave popcorn or he watches it 24/7. Serba (or someone else with access) knows about it, or at least has access to the original research and nudges Warren in the direction he wants. Warren believes he's invented instant cloning. Bonus - for the fingerprints to match, they'd need to come from an identical process. He recovers her memories through hypnosis - because they have already been duplicated and edited (missing time is an erasure) This pacifies him for a bit - until Serba is killed and he progresses in his meltdown. Heck - That Serba may be a clone and he's the one running the lab in Europe ... so many red shirts... The story has only been told from warrens point of view - which clearly is coming from a crazy place...and only reflects his version of events as he sees it. Alternatively - Once they get straightened up and crank out Warrens wholesale - it wouldn't be too much to replace ESU the Warren clone every so often, they are already doing it, and being able to pull in recent experiences to the master duplication profile would be a plus otherwise the collective experience of all the warren clones except the one at ESU stops at ASM 6x Haven't looked past 123 much - but it doesn't have to be disconnected or starting over - in fact that makes no sense If I remember the clone Gwen was always decent - even when she was working with the Jackal, she seemed drugged A cloned Warren with implanted memories who is also the Jackal, would mean we could pretty much rewrite the first Clone Saga from #123-149 to suit our needs. None of what the Warren clone said would have to be accurate as they were implanted memories. We could have some way of Gwen surviving #121 and actually have live Gwen's DNA rather than an old sample used to make Joyce Delaney and that is why she was stable. This would also help with Ozy's desire to keep Warren from looking like a bad guy. Warren would still be good,more or less, but his clone would be screwed up, and of course the clone would have no memory of his time working with Norman and the story of how he alone cloned Gwen and Peter, etc. could be implanted. It could remain faithful to Spider-man canon but retcon the First Clone Saga without major damage to continuity and shoehorn our story in a lot easier. The problem with the first story is it was never really intended to be this big arc, just a quick and dirty way to say good bye... As a stand alone it works ok; you get a sweet good bye and she out there just not discussed I think they realized they made her too perfect t, and went back and patched it with a convoluted fix - but even that didn't work once the clone saga turned into this never ending monster Don't think you'd need to rip out everything - but definatley reinterpret a lot of what's become questionable as they keep going to the clone well over and over If you look at Warren as a clone - you're right, when decoupled from the silver age charector it's a lot more flexible
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Post by dav on Jul 14, 2016 11:12:09 GMT
A cloned Warren with implanted memories who is also the Jackal, would mean we could pretty much rewrite the first Clone Saga from #123-149 to suit our needs. None of what the Warren clone said would have to be accurate as they were implanted memories. We could have some way of Gwen surviving #121 and actually have live Gwen's DNA rather than an old sample used to make Joyce Delaney and that is why she was stable. This would also help with Ozy's desire to keep Warren from looking like a bad guy. Warren would still be good,more or less, but his clone would be screwed up, and of course the clone would have no memory of his time working with Norman and the story of how he alone cloned Gwen and Peter, etc. could be implanted. It could remain faithful to Spider-man canon but retcon the First Clone Saga without major damage to continuity and shoehorn our story in a lot easier. The problem with the first story is it was never really intended to be this big arc, just a quick and dirty way to say good bye... As a stand alone it works ok; you get a sweet good bye and she out there just not discussed I think they realized they made her too perfect t, and went back and patched it with a convoluted fix - but even that didn't work once the clone saga turned into this never ending monster Don't think you'd need to rip out everything - but definatley reinterpret a lot of what's become questionable as they keep going to the clone well over and over If you look at Warren as a clone - you're right, when decoupled from the silver age charector it's a lot more flexible This idea could line up very well with the upcoming Clone Conspiracy story. Marvel could leave a teaser at the end of it, and plug your story right in to it. Who knows! Let's keep our fingers crossed!
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