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Post by dav on May 30, 2015 7:39:11 GMT
There's room for him, in this telling of the story, to want to come across as not appearing too creepy and insane, and in so doing, lying to embellish his story to appear more rational than he was. "Perhaps she reminded me of the daughter I never had" was an example of how he would present himself better, and maybe the reality was, he was obsessed with her romantically and had been trying to clone her for years before her death. Maybe a failed clone was put into the coffin and the autopsy report had either Gwen's fingerprints or the successful clone's fingerprints.
If we're looking for a way to bring back Gwen and resolve this issue, this might be one of several options to explore.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 30, 2015 12:11:22 GMT
Absolutely, let's explore option one, then.
The first question would be, what motivation would Warren have, for cloning Gwen, if he already had her hidden somewhere? I mean, when someone becomes obsessed with another person, he kidnaps her (most common scenario). The rest of the story seems superfluous, unless cloning her from some cell samples, is your only option to have anything close to the original.
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 0:47:14 GMT
Absolutely, let's explore option one, then. The first question would be, what motivation would Warren have, for cloning Gwen, if he already had her hidden somewhere? I mean, when someone becomes obsessed with another person, he kidnaps her (most common scenario). The rest of the story seems superfluous, unless cloning her from some cell samples, is your only option to have anything close to the original. Maybe it was part of Warren's elaborate, but insane master plan. He makes a clone, kidnaps Gwen, replaces her with that clone. That clone dies in #121. He has another clone that he uses for the fingerprints on the autopsy report. That clone is the one that is in the Clone Sagas, and original Gwen is still held prisoner.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 6:19:00 GMT
The question, at this point, isn't "how", but "why". Saying that he was insane, as if insinuating we can't comprehend his motivations, isn't realistic. Even insane people do things for a reason, a twisted one, but a reason nonetheless; otherwise, criminological profiling wouldn't exist. I can image why Osborn would do it, but not Warren.
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 13:10:33 GMT
The question, at this point, isn't "how", but "why". Saying that he was insane, as if insinuating we can't comprehend his motivations, isn't realistic. Even insane people do things for a reason, a twisted one, but a reason nonetheless; otherwise, criminological profiling wouldn't exist. I can image why Osborn would do it, but not Warren. I don't see it as a matter of comprehending his motivations, as much as his memory in an insane state could be flawed and he remembers things as he WANTS to remember them, or that he was just outright lying to make himself to appear less irrational to Peter. In many cases denial is a big part of insanity. Even in criminal profiling, a person who is obsessed with another person can still do irrational things while still being highly functional and still appearing normal, long before they actually snap and become insane. At the very least these plot devices can be used to address inconsistencies in a retcon.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 13:20:39 GMT
AFAIK, the Jackal persona, was in full control of Warren's memories, unless you want to introduce more personalities (à la Banner). I would rather reinstate Miles, by having Osborn manipulate him, than sink him further into madness. It would be more respectful, towards Lee's work.
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 16:15:58 GMT
AFAIK, the Jackal persona, was in full control of Warren's memories, unless you want to introduce more personalities (à la Banner). I would rather reinstate Miles, by having Osborn manipulate him, than sink him further into madness. It would be more respectful, towards Lee's work. I never saw Jackal as a split personality, like Osborn, but more as someone whose mental state was deteriorating, like a stalker, and then finally snapped with Gwen's death, but to each his own...
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Post by Ozymandias on May 31, 2015 18:05:55 GMT
I'd say that the final set of panels, reproduced on page 1 of this thread, leave little place for doubt. The Jackal wasn't just a costume, it was a personality constructed by Miles, to defend himself against a truth he couldn't face, that he killed Anthony Serba. He compartmentalized his memories, in a way that some of them, would fall under the Jackal's "jurisdiction".
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Post by dav on May 31, 2015 21:06:27 GMT
I'd say that the final set of panels, reproduced on page 1 of this thread, leave little place for doubt. The Jackal wasn't just a costume, it was a personality constructed by Miles, to defend himself against a truth he couldn't face, that he killed Anthony Serba. He compartmentalized his memories, in a way that some of them, would fall under the Jackal's "jurisdiction". The difference I see between Osborn and Warren is Osborn had memory loss where Warren had none. Osborn had two different personae. One that knew about Peter and GG and the other that didn't. Warren, as I see it, had one persona that had evolved into the Jackal but was still cognizant of Warren. No compartmentalization of memory like Osborn had.
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Post by dav on Jun 11, 2015 15:20:34 GMT
It's still insane Warren telling the story. I've met people in my time that tell the same lie over and over again to the point they actually believe it. It's a form of denial to cope with something they can't face or are too proud to admit. Therefore, there is plenty of room for retconning this.
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Post by vixx on Jun 11, 2015 21:04:47 GMT
I'd think the only reason Gwen would be in Jackal's storage would be almost as a collectable. He can look at her, he can talk to her, he can genetically build a replica that is predisposed to accept any crazy programming he may desire and even have kids and a life with it...but in the end, he knows the real Gwen can't be manipulated into liking him and would reject him as soon as she woke up. The funny thing, is the interaction really isn't about hurting Peter or Spiderman, it's about going to increasingly extreme, insane lengths to try and take what was never yours to have. You can almost picture him getting an extra spring in his step knowing she was in the next class, being sad if she cut class, grumpy when she passed her and Peter in the hallway. It most likely started with wide pics in the hallway that caught her on the fridges, or Prof. Warren Selfies timed to catch her in the background...
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 11, 2015 21:53:56 GMT
What about the whole narrative, of Warren going nuts because of her death? Are you changing his character? Again? I prefer trying to get closer, to what he was, to the way things were in the Silver Age, before Conway.
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Post by vixx on Jun 11, 2015 22:17:42 GMT
No, - he's all giddy when she's alive (check out spectacular #149) - the rest was a joke..
I don't think he would have it in him to make a move while she's alive out of fear of rejection...her death would totally send him off the deep end
I think he'd go nuts eventually, even if she lived ...from fixating on someone else... for all we know he does this every year with a different student, but Gwen's death trigged the whole "I must replace her" , followed by Serba's death... really pushed him off the deep end.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 12, 2015 5:47:02 GMT
Well, being fixated on someone is one thing, going totally bonkers quite another. Some things can't be changed, because Gerry retconned them, but they could be partially modified, by assigning the blame on Osborn.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 16, 2015 8:32:58 GMT
#1 The High Evolutionary's lie was exposed in The Second Clone saga. The issue # is probably referenced in the Marvel Wikia Site. If not check Wikipedia under Gwen Stacy Clone You should find the reference there(again, too tired right now to research it myself.) I was finally able to track that issue down, it was Scarlet Spider Unlimted #1, where we see the High Evolutionary, admitting he planted a false journal in one of Warren's labs, and that the Gwen clone was indeed a real clone, later modified into "Joyce Delaney" by Daydreamer, who believed his lies. Thanks to Phil, who provided for the link, where everything's explained.
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