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Post by Ozymandias on May 27, 2015 19:04:03 GMT
While compiling ideas about how to bring back Gwen, a recurrent one seems unavoidable: the need of a clone, to take her place at the altar (Brooklyn/George Washington Bridge). But where there really Gwen clones, in the MU? The first, and obvious, candidate from the original Clone Saga, was revealed to be a different person, kidnapped and made to look exactly like Gwen, by Miles Warren. This post leads to the whole story on this clone, which was real. The second one, from Smoke and Mirrors, Parts 2 and 3, was very short lived, and apparently created by The Jackal, with the sole intent of using it as a teaser. The last one, to chronologically appear, was actually the first one. Abby-L, a mutated copy of Gwen, who reached an agreement with Miles, so he wouldn't make more Gwen clones. So there's the thing, at least from Miles Warren, there's not likely to be an abundance of Gwen clones, among which to choose from. Considering how he and the High Evolutionary, where the only ones with enough knowledge, to create clones, everything seems to point back to Norman. It has been suggested, I think it was David, that he could have been working together with Warren. I didn't like the idea, but there doesn't seem to be much of a choice, really. Also, let's take this panel into consideration: The bit about the fingerprints is a small mistake, that opens the door for someone to have tampered with the coroner's report. We already know that Norman, had witnessed Harry bribing one, to fake his father's autopsy, so it makes sense that he would follow suit, and arrange for Joyce Delaney's fingerprints, to be at Gwen's autopsy. Now, why would he do that, unless he had something to hide/gain?
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Post by dav on May 27, 2015 23:25:45 GMT
While compiling ideas about how to bring back Gwen, a recurrent one seems unavoidable: the need of a clone, to take her place at the altar (Brooklyn/George Washington Bridge). But where there really Gwen clones, in the MU? The first, and obvious, candidate from the original Clone Saga, was revealed to be a different person, kidnapped and made to look exactly like Gwen, by Miles Warren. The second one, from Smoke and Mirrors, Parts 2 and 3, was very short lived, and apparently created by The Jackal, with the sole intent of using it as a teaser. The last one, to chronologically appear, was actually the first one. Abby-L, a mutated copy of Gwen, who reached an agreement with Miles, so he wouldn't make more Gwen clones. So there's the thing, at least from Miles Warren, there's not likely to be an abundance of Gwen clones, among which to choose from. Considering how he and the High Evolutionary, where the only ones with enough knowledge, to create clones, everything seems to point back to Norman. It has been suggested, I think it was David, that he could have been working together with Warren. I didn't like the idea, but there doesn't seem to be much of a choice, really. Also, let's take this panel into consideration: The bit about the fingerprints is a small mistake, that opens the door for someone to have tampered with the coroner's report. We already know that Norman, had witnessed Harry bribing one, to fake his father's autopsy, so it makes sense that he would follow suit, and arrange for Joyce Delaney's fingerprints, to be at Gwen's autopsy. Now, why would he do that, unless he had something to hide/gain? #2 If I remember right they retconned this to say that she was an Gwen clone and fabricated the story about her being made to look like Gwen. PPSM annual #6 I believe it was, was an abomination, but the retcon in the Second Clone Saga was equally an abomination. The writing really got BAD in that period!! in fact the artwork sucked as well! Where did the get some of those artists? Some art school for 8 year-olds? #6 This is one of the things I addressed in my idea about Gwen living in Europe with amnesia for ten years. The autopsy report had Gwens actual fingerprints, but the body that was put in the casket wasn't Gwen's. You'll have to go back and read the rest for yourself. I'm tired of repeating this story over and over again!! We have discussed this clone issue at length last year, and, although the might be a way to morph it in to satisfy the original canon and satisfy Sins Past it gets real wierd real quick and is more trouble that it's worth. At least to me! I prefer this over alternate universes and deus ex machina plot devices, but I have to concede it wouldn't be easy!!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 28, 2015 13:23:32 GMT
Looking at the entry for the Gwen clone, in the Marvel Wikia database, I see Joyce Delaney is still supposed to be the "base material", from which Miles created the clone. I've also heard, about the revelations, made by the High Evolutionary in PPSSM Annual 8, being a lie, but I can't locate in what comic it happened. I don't know if there was anything true, among the things he wrote in the forged diary, that Peter found in PPSSM #149, Dealing with retcons of retcons, is very difficult to establish a trustworthy narrative, but Anthony Serba was not Ben Reilly, and Miles Warren had indeed achieved almost instantaneous cloning, much to the High Evolutionary's dismay. In any case, in a much more recent comic ( Spider-Island: Deadly Foes), Slott addressed the "scarcity" of Gwen clones, compared to Peter's, and this seems to be accepted. Maybe I didn't express myself correctly, what I mean is that not only must "the body that was put in the casket", belong to somebody else than Gwen, but the autopsy report can't have her fingerprints, it must be faked and include Joyce Delaney's fingerprints. I'm no fan of all the cloning that took place in the 90's, but at least it's there to be used, alternate universes on the other hand…
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Post by dav on May 28, 2015 14:37:46 GMT
Looking at the entry for the Gwen clone, in the Marvel Wikia database, I see Joyce Delaney is still supposed to be the "base material", from which Miles created the clone. I've also heard, about the revelations, made by the High Evolutionary in PPSSM Annual 8, being a lie, but I can't locate in what comic it happened. I don't know if there was anything true, among the things he wrote in the forged diary, that Peter found in PPSSM #149, Dealing with retcons of retcons, is very difficult to establish a trustworthy narrative, but Anthony Serba was not Ben Reilly, and Miles Warren had indeed achieved almost instantaneous cloning, much to the High Evolutionary's dismay. In any case, in a much more recent comic ( Spider-Island: Deadly Foes), Slott addressed the "scarcity" of Gwen clones, compared to Peter's, and this seems to be accepted. Maybe I didn't express myself correctly, what I mean is that not only must "the body that was put in the casket", belong to somebody else than Gwen, but the autopsy report can't have her fingerprints, it must be faked and include Joyce Delaney's fingerprints. I'm no fan of all the cloning that took place in the 90's, but at least it's there to be used, alternate universes on the other hand… #1 The High Evolutionary's lie was exposed in The Second Clone saga. The issue # is probably referenced in the Marvel Wikia Site. If not check Wikipedia under Gwen Stacy Clone You should find the reference there(again, too tired right now to research it myself.) #2 Since The High Evolutionary was lying about Joyce Delaney, the Gwen clone is actually a Gwen Clone, and nobody actually verified Joyce's fingerprints in PPSSM #8, so the autopsy report could have Gwen's finger prints. #3 But an alternate universe would provide a Gwen Stacy uncorrupted by Sins Past. PS If someone wanted to do a back story for Gwen explaining what happened to her mother, they could name her Maxine Stacy, explaining Gwen's middle name. SO much story potential!!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 28, 2015 15:57:16 GMT
I had not checked the Wikipedia, for "Gwen Stacy Clone", but it's the same than everywhere else I've looked, "volume & issue needed". I'm starting to think this is one of those urban legends, initiated as a rumor in the early days of the Internet (something like the story with Ricky Martin and the girl who had a dog ) Regardless of whether the first clone was (were?) "authentic" or not, two individuals can't have the same fingerprints, that's a scientific fact, and they were checked in the original Clone Saga, as shown in the panel on the first post. TBD after Secret Wars. Her name was Helen, that's about the only thing we know of her.
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Post by dav on May 28, 2015 21:42:49 GMT
I had not checked the Wikipedia, for "Gwen Stacy Clone", but it's the same than everywhere else I've looked, "volume & issue needed". I'm starting to think this is one of those urban legends, initiated as a rumor in the early days of the Internet (something like the story with Ricky Martin and the girl who had a dog ) Regardless of whether the first clone was (were?) "authentic" or not, two individuals can't have the same fingerprints, that's a scientific fact, and they were checked in the original Clone Saga, as shown in the panel on the first post. TBD after Secret Wars. Her name was Helen, that's about the only thing we know of her. #2 It is true that no two individuals can have the same fingerprints. Even identical twins don't have the same fingerprints. For this reason, if cloning were to be made a viable concept and you could grow another person from the genetic material of the original, the clone would also have different fingerprints from the original. For this reason one of two things is true: Either the Gwen Clone is actually the original Gwen, or Gerry Conway fucked up! #4 I didn't know that her name was ever actually revealed. So where the hell did they get Maxine from?!?! LOL Either way, a story regarding the fate of Helen Stacy would make for some good reading.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 28, 2015 22:16:54 GMT
"Fuck up" is a little exaggerated, in this case. We're talking about a very recent scientific development at the time, probably only accessible to researchers. What we can do, is take advantage of this, to expand on the story (once again, art proving to have a life all its own).
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Post by dav on May 29, 2015 0:49:58 GMT
"Fuck up" is a little exaggerated, in this case. We're talking about a very recent scientific development at the time, probably only accessible to researchers. What we can do, is take advantage of this, to expand on the story (once again, art proving to have a life all its own). Good point. OK let's call it Gerry's flawed speculation! LOL Having said that, it would mean, given today's scientific knowledge, the Gwen clone is in reality the original Gwen!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 29, 2015 6:37:33 GMT
I don't think so, unless whoever faked the autopsy report, swapped the body's fingerprints, for those of Gwen. That wouldn't make sense either, unless it was the Jackal and he had kidnapped Gwen before her "death". It could then be said, that the character in the panel above, was indeed Gwen, and he was playing a mind game with Peter and himself. That's rather convoluted and places Gwen in a predicament, I don't wan't the character to suffer.
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Post by dav on May 29, 2015 8:29:11 GMT
I don't think so, unless whoever faked the autopsy report, swapped the body's fingerprints, for those of Gwen. That wouldn't make sense either, unless it was the Jackal and he had kidnapped Gwen before her "death". It could then be said, that the character in the panel above, was indeed Gwen, and he was playing a mind game with Peter and himself. That's rather convoluted and places Gwen in a predicament, I don't wan't the character to suffer. This specific tangential discussion is making my head hurt!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 29, 2015 8:37:34 GMT
Not exactly tangential, more like the ultimate goal. Finding out what the situation with clones was, in the MU of the early 70's, is after all, just a means to get Gwen back.
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Post by dav on May 29, 2015 9:33:53 GMT
Not exactly tangential, more like the ultimate goal. Finding out what the situation with clones was, in the MU of the early 70's, is after all, just a means to get Gwen back. I guess I'm just not seeing the relevance of clones in the goal of getting Gwen back. Same thing with Sins Past. The Clone Saga and Sins Past screwed up the timeline so badly that IMHO it is beyond the ability to explain away. It would be great if it could, but I don't know how. To go back and address ALL the details that are unresolved or unexplained and to try and find a plausible way to bring Gwen back in the wake of all that IMHO is impossible. The way I see it is you can get a Gwen from an alternate universe or just overlook the more trivial details and try and tell a good story. There has already been a LOT of creative license applied to the Spidey franchise (hell, since I have not read every single Spiderman comic, there are probably details that I am not aware of that would make any effort on my part to write a Gwen return story impossible to write (and if I knew all the details that would probably make it impossible to resolve anyway!) As for this specific fingerprint issue, either the autopsy report has Gwen's fingerprints and the clone is actually Gwen, or somehow the clone's fingerprints were put on the report and the clone is a clone. If you have another explanation I would love to hear it!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 29, 2015 10:33:59 GMT
You got it right, those are the two possible explanations, to Conway's mistake in that panel. The first one you mention, would imply that not only was Warren mad from the beginning (not just from the moment of Gwen's death onwards), but he also suffered of amnesia (which we've never seen). The second one would implicate Osborn, who WAS known for recurrent episodes of amnesia.
Of course, this is just but the start of a long journey. As you mention, there's a LOT to clean up, after The Clone Saga and Sins Past, but the latter isn't that much of a problem, the former now… we're talking a very long storyline, with several corollaries, which spawned over the years and were written by different people. I also think it's not possible to make perfect sense of of it all, but if we can keep the main elements in place, we should be good.
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Post by dav on May 29, 2015 19:06:36 GMT
You got it right, those are the two possible explanations, to Conway's mistake in that panel. The first one you mention, would imply that not only was Warren mad from the beginning (not just from the moment of Gwen's death onwards), but he also suffered of amnesia (which we've never seen). The second one would implicate Osborn, who WAS known for recurrent episodes of amnesia. Of course, this is just but the start of a long journey. As you mention, there's a LOT to clean up, after The Clone Saga and Sins Past, but the latter isn't that much of a problem, the former now… we're talking a very long storyline, with several corollaries, which spawned over the years and were written by different people. I also think it's not possible to make perfect sense of of it all, but if we can keep the main elements in place, we should be good. This goes back to our discussions about how to resolve Sins Past by having there be a conspiracy between Osborn and Warren. Between madness and amnesia there is all kinds of stuff that can be inserted into the story to explain a lot of stuff. There also nothing saying that Osborn or warren were completely truthful or that their memories might be compromised due to madness, where they remember things the way they WANTED it to be as opposed to the way things actually were. Hell, if the High Evolutionary can lie, why can't these two jokers!!
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Post by Ozymandias on May 29, 2015 21:22:36 GMT
The Jackal was no stranger to lies, but that was in the 90's (from what I read online). At the time were we would need a figure, operating hidden in the shadows, he hadn't yet resorted to twisting tales. I think we can accept the following one, as basically true: The particulars about the creation of the Gwen clone ,aren't completely clear, but the rest of the story holds. It's true he lied about the first version of the events, he related: We can agree on this lie as an essential part, for the completion of his plan, and not as a mere entertainment device. As for the possibility of him not remembering things accurately, there was no indication that his Jackal persona wasn't in full control of his memory. The same couldn't be said about Warren "himself":
Of the two candidates, Osborn is much more promising, specially considering how HE was the one behind the curtains, in the second Clone Saga. PS: if quoting, try to leave the pictures out
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