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Post by spiderman62 on Jun 5, 2014 21:57:25 GMT
Late? You're the sixth member! Does that make us the Sinister Six?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 5, 2014 22:19:00 GMT
I really expect that to be only temporary, by Toutatis!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 8:18:26 GMT
Is that confirm in canon or was it that he just started to appear to be making progress
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 6, 2014 8:24:09 GMT
You didn't use the "quote" but I think I know what you're talking about. Look at ASM #149, page 6, and judge for yourself if it's cannon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 9:18:30 GMT
you didn't use the "quote" but I think I know what you're talking about. Look at ASM #149, page 6, and judge for yourself if it's cannon. Cool i try and see if i have a reprint of it at home if not i have to get the marvel masterworks to check it out.
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Post by dav on Jun 6, 2014 10:01:46 GMT
Is that confirm in canon or was it that he just started to appear to be making progress First, Tiger!! Good to see ya buddy!!
Second, Considering what a convoluted mess Sins Past was as well as Second(?) Clone Saga, I don't think we have to go to the letter regarding Warren doing his clone research AFTER #121. He was crazy after all, and there's a reason that he might not tell Peter about his EARLIER Clone research to avoid appearing too creepy in his love for Gwen. For him to create a "love toy" out of a Gwen clone BEFORE her death, would not do his image a lot of good and despite his irrationality he still has an ego he wants to protect! So as I proposed earlier, on page 4 of this thread, Warren makes a clone, Norman tells Warren she died, but in reality Norman replaced Gwen with the clone. I'll let you read the rest for yourself!
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Post by dav on Jun 6, 2014 10:11:41 GMT
You didn't use the "quote" but I think I know what you're talking about. Look at ASM #149, page 6, and judge for yourself if it's cannon. I don't think after 40 years we have to be a stickler with Spiderman canon, especially since we're dealing with a madman in the case of Warren. He could have told Peter ANYTHING back in #149 and as a nut job could believe it to be true. I don't think it would be too much of an issue to say that SOME of his cloning research was done prior to Gwen's death, and the MOST important part of this "modification" of canon is that it does away with the tarnishing of Gwen's character and image in Sin's Past. Considering all the liberties taken with Sins Past, by modifying Spidey history to such a SMALL extent can most definitely be accepted!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 10:40:55 GMT
First, Tiger!! Good to see ya buddy!! Hey Drew buddy, good to be and good to be chatting Second, Considering what a convoluted mess Sins Past was as well as Second(?) Clone Saga, I don't think we have to go to the letter regarding Warren doing his clone research AFTER #121. He was crazy after all, and there's a reason that he might not tell Peter about his EARLIER Clone research to avoid appearing too creepy in his love for Gwen. For him to create a "love toy" out of a Gwen clone BEFORE her death, would not do his image a lot of good and despite his irrationality he still has an ego he wants to protect! So as I proposed earlier, on page 4 of this thread, Warren makes a clone, Norman tells Warren she died, but in reality Norman replaced Gwen with the clone. I'll let you read the rest for yourself!
Like i said earlier my orginal idea was to keep Sins Past in cannon as while it wasn't the greatest story there is potential, retconning it so that a clone died is the best of two worlds the Real Gwen has to come to grips with the fact her body was used by norman osborn(barf), her old professor had those feelings(ew) and she has a nephew who is in jail and slightly insane & a niece who not only works for interpol but made a pass at her old boyfriend(gasp), i can see the drama already. I'm curious what relation would a clone be to the orginal sister maybe so lets add this in as well, she mourns for a sister she never had, she could also be used in a tug of war between Norman and Miles when the truth comes out and it always does. I don't think after 40 years we have to be a stickler with Spiderman canon, especially since we're dealing with a madman in the case of Warren. He could have told Peter ANYTHING back in #149 and as a nut job could believe it to be true. I don't think it would be too much of an issue to say that SOME of his cloning research was done prior to Gwen's death, and the MOST important part of this "modification" of canon is that it does away with the tarnishing of Gwen's character and image in Sin's Past. Considering all the liberties taken with Sins Past, by modifying Spidey history to such a SMALL extent can most definitely be accepted! Drew my man i'm confused i thought that you said Sins Past was used to modernize Gwen. That you could see potential by keeping it and not retconning, be truthful with me do you think Sins Past tarnished Gwens character, i would like if you could clear things up cause when in the CBR forums you were fighting on the other side
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 6, 2014 10:52:37 GMT
I don't think after 40 years we have to be a stickler with Spiderman canon, especially since we're dealing with a madman in the case of Warren. He could have told Peter ANYTHING back in #149 and as a nut job could believe it to be true. I don't think it would be too much of an issue to say that SOME of his cloning research was done prior to Gwen's death, and the MOST important part of this "modification" of canon is that it does away with the tarnishing of Gwen's character and image in Sin's Past. Considering all the liberties taken with Sins Past, by modifying Spidey history to such a SMALL extent can most definitely be accepted! I also considered the possibility that, a deranged person, might not have a perfectly clear recollection of events, but it depends of how you see his affliction. For me, Miles Warren was a University teacher who, as shown in the original work, led a normal life. Someone who love one of his students, but didn't really wanted to accept that fact. Then Gwen died and his world collapsed. I'm not saying I agree with Conway's modifications of a well stablished character, but I can understand his actions more than I can Peter's reaction, towards that particular death. I want to be respectful with the original work (pre-1984) and I'm not inclined to modify it because later work, post-1984, is a mess. I prefer to ignore that later work, and stay between the frame of the original. If you want to retcon sins past AND bring Gwen back to present day, you'll face problems that probably call for such modifications, that's where we disagree, you place more importance in the mess, than in the original work.
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Post by dav on Jun 6, 2014 11:12:11 GMT
You didn't use the "quote" but I think I know what you're talking about. Look at ASM #149, page 6, and judge for yourself if it's cannon. Just to make sure, I went back and read #149 again, and there is still room for applying a modification to canon along similar lines to my original proposal. Here's my change to my original proposal: Warren had tissue samples of Gwen BEFORE #121 and there is no reference that I can find as to exactly WHEN those tissue samples were taken, so they could easily have been taken in the time frame associated with Sins Past. Warren can STILL have worked for Norman and this is where SOME of his cloning research began. I will say that Warren didn't have to KNOW that he made a successful clone of Gwen. Perhaps in doing the research for Norman, Norman learned enough to do the cloning himself. He steals tissue samples of Gwen from Warren and creates the clone himself, THEN replaces Gwen with the clone. Warren is none the wiser, but there is now a Gwen clone out there for Norman's nefarious purposes. Warren didn't realize at the time that he had stumbled upon a successful cloning procedure, because Norman led him to believe that his experiments working for him were failures. From this point we can continue with my proposal as I presented.
I ALSO went back and checked out #61 and if we are going to stick to canon, then this would be good to add to the story. Coincidentally, the short-lived Spectactular Spider-man Magazine came out, and in 1968 SSM #2, right around the time of #61 came out with a story about the Green Goblin! It actually looks like a logical insertion in the Spidey timeline. After #61, Norman was on shaky mental ground, and this SSM story follows right into this timeline. So during the events of THIS story, my story idea can be inserted right along with this Goblin story! This story is reprinted in ASM Annual #9, and if you check out the first page you will see that it is mentioned that it originally was in the SSM #2 magazine from 1968! It's almost as if they wrote it for me to use!!
So while Norman is in THIS Goblin moment he ALSO does all this stuff with Gwen and clones, and this new "modified" Sins Past, etc. THEN after he reverts back to Norman he forgets about all these things he's done, and things progress until #121 when Gwen's clone is killed at the bridge.
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Post by dav on Jun 6, 2014 11:35:25 GMT
First, Tiger!! Good to see ya buddy!! Hey Drew buddy, good to be and good to be chatting Second, Considering what a convoluted mess Sins Past was as well as Second(?) Clone Saga, I don't think we have to go to the letter regarding Warren doing his clone research AFTER #121. He was crazy after all, and there's a reason that he might not tell Peter about his EARLIER Clone research to avoid appearing too creepy in his love for Gwen. For him to create a "love toy" out of a Gwen clone BEFORE her death, would not do his image a lot of good and despite his irrationality he still has an ego he wants to protect! So as I proposed earlier, on page 4 of this thread, Warren makes a clone, Norman tells Warren she died, but in reality Norman replaced Gwen with the clone. I'll let you read the rest for yourself!
Like i said earlier my orginal idea was to keep Sins Past in cannon as while it wasn't the greatest story there is potential, retconning it so that a clone died is the best of two worlds the Real Gwen has to come to grips with the fact her body was used by norman osborn(barf), her old professor had those feelings(ew) and she has a nephew who is in jail and slightly insane & a niece who not only works for interpol but made a pass at her old boyfriend(gasp), i can see the drama already. I'm curious what relation would a clone be to the orginal sister maybe so lets add this in as well, she mourns for a sister she never had, she could also be used in a tug of war between Norman and Miles when the truth comes out and it always does. I don't think after 40 years we have to be a stickler with Spiderman canon, especially since we're dealing with a madman in the case of Warren. He could have told Peter ANYTHING back in #149 and as a nut job could believe it to be true. I don't think it would be too much of an issue to say that SOME of his cloning research was done prior to Gwen's death, and the MOST important part of this "modification" of canon is that it does away with the tarnishing of Gwen's character and image in Sin's Past. Considering all the liberties taken with Sins Past, by modifying Spidey history to such a SMALL extent can most definitely be accepted! Drew my man i'm confused i thought that you said Sins Past was used to modernize Gwen. That you could see potential by keeping it and not retconning, be truthful with me do you think Sins Past tarnished Gwens character, i would like if you could clear things up cause when in the CBR forums you were fighting on the other side
Tiger, I do like your idea a lot, but Ozy and Kurt find Sins Past intolerable, so I felt that it would be a good idea to maximize approval and find consensus, so their feelings needed to be respected. If you check out my last post you will see how this can be made to work. Granted, the pure, chaste Gwen of the 60's is not realistic, but I think that she can STILL be modernized and made more sophisticated within your proposal as well. Being locked up for ten years will STILL affect her, and your other ideas regarding maybe her having a sense of duty regarding her clone's kids could still be applied.
Personally, I DON'T like Sins Past, but I can see both sides of the argument. I am willing to work with Sins Past if necessary and can see advantages to keeping it as we have talked about at CBR, but if it CAN be removed, I would prefer that and there is still plenty that can be done with Gwen.
Tiger, I know this may SEEM schizophrenic, but it was really just keeping an open mind. Just like although I prefer Gwen to come back, if there was TOO much resistance I was willing to present a compromise with my Peter/Gwen clone idea. It's too bad that douche-bag Mets and the equally douchy admin didn't appreciate that!
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Post by dav on Jun 6, 2014 11:41:08 GMT
I don't think after 40 years we have to be a stickler with Spiderman canon, especially since we're dealing with a madman in the case of Warren. He could have told Peter ANYTHING back in #149 and as a nut job could believe it to be true. I don't think it would be too much of an issue to say that SOME of his cloning research was done prior to Gwen's death, and the MOST important part of this "modification" of canon is that it does away with the tarnishing of Gwen's character and image in Sin's Past. Considering all the liberties taken with Sins Past, by modifying Spidey history to such a SMALL extent can most definitely be accepted! I also considered the possibility that, a deranged person, might not have a perfectly clear recollection of events, but it depends of how you see his affliction. For me, Miles Warren was a University teacher who, as shown in the original work, led a normal life. Someone who love one of his students, but didn't really wanted to accept that fact. Then Gwen died and his world collapsed. I'm not saying I agree with Conway's modifications of a well stablished character, but I can understand his actions more than I can Peter's reaction, towards that particular death. I want to be respectful with the original work (pre-1984) and I'm not inclined to modify it because later work, post-1984, is a mess. I prefer to ignore that later work, and stay between the frame of the original. If you want to retcon sins past AND bring Gwen back to present day, you'll face problems that probably call for such modifications, that's where we disagree, you place more importance in the mess, than in the original work.
After I went back and reread #149, I concede that my original proposal did stretch retconning a bit too much, so as you see in my NEW proposal, I have found a way to keep Warren's timeline (and Spidey canon) more or less intact. (thankfully I remembered that Spectacular Spider-man Mag!!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 11:43:05 GMT
Hey Drew buddy, good to be and good to be chatting Like i said earlier my orginal idea was to keep Sins Past in cannon as while it wasn't the greatest story there is potential, retconning it so that a clone died is the best of two worlds the Real Gwen has to come to grips with the fact her body was used by norman osborn(barf), her old professor had those feelings(ew) and she has a nephew who is in jail and slightly insane & a niece who not only works for interpol but made a pass at her old boyfriend(gasp), i can see the drama already. I'm curious what relation would a clone be to the orginal sister maybe so lets add this in as well, she mourns for a sister she never had, she could also be used in a tug of war between Norman and Miles when the truth comes out and it always does. Drew my man i'm confused i thought that you said Sins Past was used to modernize Gwen. That you could see potential by keeping it and not retconning, be truthful with me do you think Sins Past tarnished Gwens character, i would like if you could clear things up cause when in the CBR forums you were fighting on the other side
Tiger, I do like your idea a lot, but Ozy and Kurt find Sins Past intolerable, so I felt that it would be a good idea to maximize approval and find consensus, so their feelings needed to be respected. If you check out my last post you will see how this can be made to work. Granted, the pure, chaste Gwen of the 60's is not realistic, but I think that she can STILL be modernized and made more sophisticated within your proposal as well. Being locked up for ten years will STILL affect her, and your other ideas regarding maybe her having a sense of duty regarding her clone's kids could still be applied.
Personally, I DON'T like Sins Past, but I can see both sides of the argument. I am willing to work with Sins Past if necessary and can see advantages to keeping it as we have talked about at CBR, but if it CAN be removed, I would prefer that and there is still plenty that can be done with Gwen.
Tiger, I know this may SEEM schizophrenic, but it was really just keeping an open mind. Just like although I prefer Gwen to come back, if there was TOO much resistance I was willing to present a compromise with my Peter/Gwen clone idea. It's too bad that douche-bag Mets and the equally douchy admin didn't appreciate that!
Na thats cool dude, open mindness is a good thing, me i try to stay on the fence while i don't think that Sins Past is great i don't have a problem with it kinda like twilight. Big question in ASM #61 in your updated idea when would the switch happen, what i'm trying to say is you could have the switch happen on the night but you could also have it hapen when the DNA was taken so Gwen would have to deal with her fathers death as well as that of her sister(clone). Which one were you thinking of.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 6, 2014 11:48:29 GMT
I still don't see the need for the Warren-Norman connection, it introduces more problems than it solves. If we believe post-1984 continuity, you HAVE to modify the original work. Norman becomes a different character from ASM #122 onwards. You can have him do all the dirty work of retconing Sins Past, without Miles.
The problem, of course, is that you want to bring her back to the present, but you don't want the age difference. Well, we also disagree on that, because I don't want to change a wrong (her death) with another (a decade of imprisonment).
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Post by dav on Jun 6, 2014 12:01:01 GMT
Tiger, I do like your idea a lot, but Ozy and Kurt find Sins Past intolerable, so I felt that it would be a good idea to maximize approval and find consensus, so their feelings needed to be respected. If you check out my last post you will see how this can be made to work. Granted, the pure, chaste Gwen of the 60's is not realistic, but I think that she can STILL be modernized and made more sophisticated within your proposal as well. Being locked up for ten years will STILL affect her, and your other ideas regarding maybe her having a sense of duty regarding her clone's kids could still be applied.
Personally, I DON'T like Sins Past, but I can see both sides of the argument. I am willing to work with Sins Past if necessary and can see advantages to keeping it as we have talked about at CBR, but if it CAN be removed, I would prefer that and there is still plenty that can be done with Gwen.
Tiger, I know this may SEEM schizophrenic, but it was really just keeping an open mind. Just like although I prefer Gwen to come back, if there was TOO much resistance I was willing to present a compromise with my Peter/Gwen clone idea. It's too bad that douche-bag Mets and the equally douchy admin didn't appreciate that!
Na thats cool dude, open mindness is a good thing, me i try to stay on the fence while i don't think that Sins Past is great i don't have a problem with it kinda like twilight. Big question in ASM #61 in your updated idea when would the switch happen, what i'm trying to say is you could have the switch happen on the night but you could also have it hapen when the DNA was taken so Gwen would have to deal with her fathers death as well as that of her sister(clone). Which one were you thinking of.
Well, how about this! It would happen a short while after #61. As in Sins Past, Gwen goes over to talk to Norman, but Norman (as shown in the SSM #2 insertion) is in Goblin mode. He captures Gwen, and plants the "Sins" memory in the clone (or, being the sociopathic Goblin, goes ahead and bangs the clone (hey, this ain't the 60's anymore! )) Then sends her out as Gwen's replacement. All this would happen in conjunction with the events of SSM #2. Whuddaya think?
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