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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 15:02:23 GMT
Another approach that might offer some resolution for Gwen fans would be to never have her die in the first place. How about creating a new comic line that explores this alternate timeline. It would pick up from #121 but Gwen wouldn't die. Instead of using his webbing to save Gwen, Spidey dives after her and saves her rather than the webbing causing her demise. Perhaps Peter whisks Gwen to safety then goes back and fights Goblin and as usual finds a way to restore Norman's persona, then from this point the comic tells the story that Gerry Conway didn't want Spidey to have. In this new timeline we can avoid many of the more groanworthy and convoluted pitfalls in ASM, like the Clone Saga, Secret Wars, Venom, Aunt May's return after #400, OMD, etc. Sins Past would have to be resolved, but in this new timeline we can find a way to resolve it without tarnishing Gwen's image.
This new timeline could actually be written in a more sane fashion and also have a more positive tone than the 616 timeline does and have the integrity that 616 lacks. It could also incorporate modified versions of the best storylines from the Spidey franchise, such as “The Death of Jean Dewolf” and a whole host of other GOOD stories, just in a modified form.
The most important aspect of course would be that Peter and Gwen would have the life they were meant to if not for Gerry Conway, and allow Gwen's character to develop in a way that Gwen fans would like.
This would not step on the toes of 616 Spidey fans and would give the Gwen fans a comic that they could appreciate. The story ideas would be fresh and not constrained by the convoluted Spidey canon of 616.
To avoid the heated debates of CBR let's try and keep this about how to make this concept work rather that why it can't. There are plenty of things to discuss within this objective, such as how to resolve Sins Past, what role Gwen can play in this new timeline, what kind of NEW stories can be told that couldn't in 616, how to keep this timeline from getting crazy like 616 did, how to appeal to readers that might be disillusioned by the direction 616 Spidey has gone, etc. |
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 15:03:44 GMT
I went back and read Sins Past again. First, I have to admit, despite everything it was a well written story and the artwork was stellar.
Anyway, I think there is a way to resolve Sins Past within 4936. (4936 is the designation that we have assigned to this concept. I'll let Ozy explain how he derived it. It's quite brilliant!)
This part happens before #121:
Norman's original plan was just to create more suitable heirs than Harry. Norman never really respected Harry. He thought Harry was weak and he wanted heirs who were stronger. He always admired Gwen's strength and character and so he drugged her and extracted some of her eggs for in vitro fertilization. They never had sex. The only person to know about the kids at this time was Norman.
This next part happens long after #121
Because of Norman's hatred of Peter, he instilled hatred within the kids and developed a master plan for the kids to kill Peter, but to add insult to injury he exploited the kid's genetics and created the scenario that he had sex with Gwen to hurt Peter even more. To further reinforce the scenario he implanted the false memory into MJ about overhearing the the argument between Gwen and Norman. (in which it was also mentioned that he wanted the kids as heirs over Harry.) After the kids had killed Peter, they were then to become heirs to the Osborn fortune as well as carry on the Goblin legacy.
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 15:09:39 GMT
OK people, now we have a foundation to work with. LET"S POLISH THIS TURD!  |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2014 17:12:33 GMT
It could also incorporate modified versions of the best storylines from the Spidey franchise, such as “The Death of Jean Dewolf” and a whole host of other GOOD stories, just in a modified form.
The most important aspect of course would be that Peter and Gwen would have the life they were meant to
This would not step on the toes of 616 Spidey fans and would give the Gwen fans a comic that they could appreciate. The story ideas would be fresh and not constrained by the convoluted Spidey canon of 616. Obviously, starting to tell new stories, from 1973 onwards, you can choose to skip, retell or modify to whatever extent you want, any stories available from earth 616. That's one of the beauties, the other one being that, not having to keep up with real time, the characters could age at any rate desirable, without sliding scales or any such crap. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2014 17:13:07 GMT
I think there is a way to resolve Sins Past within 4936. This part happens before #121: Norman's original plan was just to create more suitable heirs than Harry. Norman never really respected Harry. He thought Harry was weak and he wanted heirs who were stronger. He always admired Gwen's strength and character and so he drugged her and extracted some of her eggs for in vitro fertilization. They never had sex. The only person to know about the kids at this time was Norman. Earth-4936, because that's GWEN in the North American Classic Key Pad. After defeating the GG, Peter could end up in his lair and just find a couple of test tubes (containing genetic material) labeled Gabriel and Sarah, a bunch of handwritten notes from Gwen (some dairy maybe) and Winkler's reconstructed brainwashing machine. The letter had not been written yet, he had not implanted memories in MJ either. It's about just giving the basic information that contradicts SP, and leave it to Earth-616 whether they leave it there or further the explanation. |
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 17:32:45 GMT
It could also incorporate modified versions of the best storylines from the Spidey franchise, such as “The Death of Jean Dewolf” and a whole host of other GOOD stories, just in a modified form.
The most important aspect of course would be that Peter and Gwen would have the life they were meant to
This would not step on the toes of 616 Spidey fans and would give the Gwen fans a comic that they could appreciate. The story ideas would be fresh and not constrained by the convoluted Spidey canon of 616. Obviously, starting to tell new stories, from 1973 onwards, you can choose to skip, retell or modify to whatever extent you want, any stories available from earth 616. That's one of the beauties, the other one being that, not having to keep up with real time, the characters could age at any rate desirable, without sliding scales or any such crap. Very True! Admittedly there needs to be some allowance for Delays between monthly magazines but that's just part of the game! But yeah, no need for this de-aging crap and maybe we can FINALLY give Aunt May the funeral she deserves! However, a #121 style ending for Aunt May would be a great story!  |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2014 17:41:24 GMT
You just gave me the idea! The GG captures and throws Aunt May of the bridge instead!  |
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 17:47:30 GMT
I think there is a way to resolve Sins Past within 4936. This part happens before #121: Norman's original plan was just to create more suitable heirs than Harry. Norman never really respected Harry. He thought Harry was weak and he wanted heirs who were stronger. He always admired Gwen's strength and character and so he drugged her and extracted some of her eggs for in vitro fertilization. They never had sex. The only person to know about the kids at this time was Norman. Earth-4936, because that's GWEN in the North American Classic Key Pad. After defeating the GG, Peter could end up in his lair and just find a couple of test tubes (containing genetic material) labeled Gabriel and Sarah, a bunch of handwritten notes from Gwen (some dairy maybe) and Winkler's reconstructed brainwashing machine. The letter had not been written yet, he had not implanted memories in MJ either. It's about just giving the basic information that contradicts SP, and leave it to Earth-616 whether they leave it there or further the explanation. I'm happy with that. It would hint at SP, kind of as a foreshadowing, but we could just leave it alone as a dropped plotline. It would also make a nice ending for a comic, kind of like the way they did with the vial marked BR suggesting Ben Reilly in ASM recently, but of course with Gwen still alive, there would be no Clone Saga, which is fine by me! That doesn't mean that we couldn't make Warren into some kind of stalker for Gwen which would have all kinds of possibilities.
That is a storyline that we definitely need to work on first: The defeat of Green Goblin. We need to find a way of making it so that we don't go through he tired crap of him getting amnesia and then regaining his memory and knowing Peter's secret identity. It's time to find a better solution for that. Also non of this Harry Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Grey Goblin, crap as well. We might want to toy with the idea WAY down the road, but for now, it needs to be put to bed at least for a long while.
So how about the Defeat of the Green Goblin. Any ideas? Tiger, got any brilliant ideas up your sleeve?
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 18:30:51 GMT
You just gave me the idea! The GG captures and throws Aunt May of the bridge instead! I think that was Romita's original plan, before Conway stuck his nose in!  |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2014 18:33:33 GMT
Well, what better idea than the original, then? ASM #121 & 122 would basically be the same, except Aunt May dies and Gwen comforts Peter, instead of MJ |
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 18:49:58 GMT
Well, what better idea than the original, then? ASM #121 & 122 would basically be the same, except Aunt May dies and Gwen comforts Peter, instead of MJ I think for the pilot comic there would be the most interest in having Gwen saved. I will say this, a few years down the road, You COULD go that route, of course if you were to do the web bit, Aunt May's leg would probably just tear off at the hip!
One thing I am curious about, given our heated discussion about continuity earlier how come you don't have a problem with #121 ending at night, but #122 picking up in daytime?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2014 19:03:08 GMT
Now you're being nasty, let's say she has Spock's cybernetic limb, already installed, that would hold.  About the difference you mention… it's hard to tell day and night, with the color schemes they usually chose for backgrounds, but you could be right. Like those angle/reverse angle brilliancies from Ed Wood. |
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 19:17:07 GMT
Now you're being nasty, let's say she has Spock's cybernetic limb, already installed, that would hold. About the difference you mention… it's hard to tell day and night, with the color schemes they usually chose for backgrounds, but you could be right. Like those angle/reverse angle brilliancies from Ed Wood. It was definitely daytime in #122. It isn't the first time mistakes like that were made, and having the comics written a month apart, things do get forgotten. I'm just saying, we spent hours going over minute details that were no more significant or relevant than this day and night discrepancy and yet THIS you can overlook? I'm not gonna let you forget this, buddy! |
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Post by dav on Jun 9, 2014 19:31:07 GMT
Just to go off on a tangent for a second, whenever I read #121 and #122, I always get a shiver in my spine when I read the frame with the "snap!" No matter how many times I read it and even to this day! Another thing that happens is two songs go through my mind: "Beginnings" from Chicago and "We May Never Pass This Way Again" from Seals and Crofts, most often the latter. Anybody else have any things they associate with this story, or am I just nuts?  |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 9, 2014 19:48:55 GMT
Every time I read it, I remember the first time I laid eyes on Mr. Conway's gift to humanity. A hot summer day, like most around here, at our cottage. Not a happy memory, though.
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