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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 18:21:21 GMT
Well, there you have it. I haven't read the What If, because I don't really like them. They are isolated, imaginary stories that carry no extra weight. As Alan Moore pointed out, they're all imaginary stories, but those between continuity have an added value, I feel more inclined to read them, because they focus on a universe filled with characters who interact, and whom I've been following for long. The What If scenario, as the basis of a new continuum, doesn't fully work for me, as it has a lesser degree of reality. To avoid the new universe being a What If scenario, you need to make it possible with the elements present. I don't recall any character in the MU, back in 1973, being so godlike as to be able to pull it off. The beyonder resetting things in 1984 is kinda like a What if in and of itself, so six of one half a dozen of the other! 
As for a godlike entity in 1973, there's Uatu (the Watcher) Eternity, and Dr. Strange and I'm sure quite a few others that I just can't think of. All it would take is a being that can transcend time and subtlely influence Peter. The least powerful who can accomplish this to my knowledge would be Dr. Strange. I think it was in #500 that he gave Peter five minutes with Uncle Ben so this is definitely within his capabilities. Either way, this would avoid any use of time platforms, keep Gwen the same age as Peter and give you the alternate timeline you want albeit quite a bit earlier. There would be no Clone Saga, because Gwen wouldn't die (but that doesn't mean that Warren couldn't become an issue due to his love of Gwen) so there is potential here.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 18:36:35 GMT
You've said your understood perfectly, what I was trying to convey with my Marvel 1984 concept. When you talk of "reseting", "What If" or "alternate" (in the other thread) it becomes clear that's not the case. I'll try a different approach.
Imagine you are outside the universe (A), looking in. You decide to enter, but before doing that, you copy it, creating a new universe (B). Then, you decide to enter into B, and have your adventures and whatnot there. Those stories continue to be told up to the present day, in the mainstream line of Earth-616, MU comics.
Now answer me this, is the new universe an alternate version of A? Is it a What If? Was there a resetting of some kind?
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 20:12:35 GMT
You've said your understood perfectly, what I was trying to convey with my Marvel 1984 concept. When you talk of "reseting", "What If" or "alternate" (in the other thread) it becomes clear that's not the case. I'll try a different approach. Imagine you are outside the universe (A), looking in. You decide to enter, but before doing that, you copy it, creating a new universe (B). Then, you decide to enter into B, and have your adventures and whatnot there. Those stories continue to be told up to the present day, in the mainstream line of Earth-616, MU comics. Now answer me this, is the new universe an alternate version of A? Is it a What If? Was there a resetting of some kind? A fork is created in the timeline at some point in 1984, and a new magazine is created to follow this new timeline B from 1984 forward, while Present day Spidey goes along in A, Earth 616 in 2014. B, although written in present day, is essentially written about the past, a period piece if you will. Like a western, written in present day about events that have happened in the past, or like Mad Men on AMC TV. The difference being that in say Mad Men you change history. Kennedy doesn't get assassinated, Nixon doesn't get elected, essentially a divergent timeline but written in the past, taking the fork forward from 1963, but diverging from the events that have already transpired.
Another example, a writer A today is given the task of writing a story from 1973, a period piece, but Gwen doesn't die. In the next issue it is written about the day after the bridge scene where Peter and Gwen are talking about the close call they had, still in 1973. Where the writer B for Amazing Spiderman is let's say dealing with the after effects of Doc Ock taking over Peter's body in 2014. Next issue Writer A is still writing about 1973 but Gwen is alive , Where writer B is writing about 2014 where Gwen has been dead for ten years (comic time).
Am I on the right track?
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 20:36:37 GMT
Another example would be this:
ASM #121 is designated #121 Gwen dies
What If #24 is now designated #121a Gwen doesn't die
#122 GG dies
#122a GG doesn't die
#121 was written in 1973
#121a is written in 2014 about the events of 1973
Is this clearer and am I on the right track?
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 21:11:18 GMT
By the way, I went back and read #251 and I better understand where you're coming from. After #251 the stories got pretty incredulous and the ethicality and integrity of Peter/Spidey's character, became muddled. I agree with you that today's comics lack this and I too would like this restored. I also prefer the artwork of this era which was much more realistic than many of the later artists. Although I liked Spider-man: Blue, Tim Sale's artwork diminished the impact somewhat for me. Same with Todd MacFarlane. I kinda get the impression he was on some pretty good drugs when he was doing Spider-man! He might have also been influence by Heavy Metal and it's very murky perspective of the world as well as what I consider poor artwork.
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Post by KurtW95 on Jun 7, 2014 21:28:40 GMT
The time thing shouldn't really be a problem considering Marvel's sliding timeline, which makes the incident only a few years ago.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 22:06:06 GMT
You've said your understood perfectly, what I was trying to convey with my Marvel 1984 concept. When you talk of "reseting", "What If" or "alternate" (in the other thread) it becomes clear that's not the case. I'll try a different approach. Imagine you are outside the universe (A), looking in. You decide to enter, but before doing that, you copy it, creating a new universe (B). Then, you decide to enter into B, and have your adventures and whatnot there. Those stories continue to be told up to the present day, in the mainstream line of Earth-616, MU comics. Now answer me this, is the new universe an alternate version of A? Is it a What If? Was there a resetting of some kind? A fork is created in the timeline at some point in 1984, and a new magazine is created to follow this new timeline B from 1984 forward, while Present day Spidey goes along in A, Earth 616 in 2014. B, although written in present day, is essentially written about the past, a period piece if you will. Like a western, written in present day about events that have happened in the past, or like Mad Men on AMC TV. The difference being that in say Mad Men you change history. Kennedy doesn't get assassinated, Nixon doesn't get elected, essentially a divergent timeline but written in the past, taking the fork forward from 1963, but diverging from the events that have already transpired.
Another example, a writer A today is given the task of writing a story from 1973, a period piece, but Gwen doesn't die. In the next issue it is written about the day after the bridge scene where Peter and Gwen are talking about the close call they had, still in 1973. Where the writer B for Amazing Spiderman is let's say dealing with the after effects of Doc Ock taking over Peter's body in 2014. Next issue Writer A is still writing about 1973 but Gwen is alive , Where writer B is writing about 2014 where Gwen has been dead for ten years (comic time).
Am I on the right track?
You go it backwards. B is Earth-616 as we know it in 2014, with 50+ years of recorded history. A is unknown to us since April, 1984. What you got right, is the fact that 1984 presents the opportunity to change things. Without the Beyonder, many things would change from the very start, and from there, many others could. That's something it has in common with the What If mindset. What's fundamentally different, is that this isn't an alternate world, it isn't an imaginary story (no more than those of the regular MU). Curiously, the second paragraph is totally correct, letters A and B properly assigned |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 22:08:36 GMT
Another example would be this: ASM #121 is designated #121 Gwen dies What If #24 is now designated #121a Gwen doesn't die #122 GG dies #122a GG doesn't die #121 was written in 1973 #121a is written in 2014 about the events of 1973 Is this clearer and am I on the right track? Forget all this and concentrate on what you wrote on the second paragraph of your previous post, you got it there. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 22:11:25 GMT
By the way, I went back and read #251 and I better understand where you're coming from. After #251 the stories got pretty incredulous and the ethicality and integrity of Peter/Spidey's character, became muddled. I consider this a particularly fortunate coincidence, for the Spider-Man franchise. Right at the point where things started to go south, we are given the opportunity to change things, using elements present in the comics of that very same time. |
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 22:33:44 GMT
A fork is created in the timeline at some point in 1984, and a new magazine is created to follow this new timeline B from 1984 forward, while Present day Spidey goes along in A, Earth 616 in 2014. B, although written in present day, is essentially written about the past, a period piece if you will. Like a western, written in present day about events that have happened in the past, or like Mad Men on AMC TV. The difference being that in say Mad Men you change history. Kennedy doesn't get assassinated, Nixon doesn't get elected, essentially a divergent timeline but written in the past, taking the fork forward from 1963, but diverging from the events that have already transpired.
Another example, a writer A today is given the task of writing a story from 1973, a period piece, but Gwen doesn't die. In the next issue it is written about the day after the bridge scene where Peter and Gwen are talking about the close call they had, still in 1973. Where the writer B for Amazing Spiderman is let's say dealing with the after effects of Doc Ock taking over Peter's body in 2014. Next issue Writer A is still writing about 1973 but Gwen is alive , Where writer B is writing about 2014 where Gwen has been dead for ten years (comic time).
Am I on the right track?
You go it backwards. B is Earth-616 as we know it in 2014, with 50+ years of recorded history. A is unknown to us since April, 1984. What you got right, is the fact that 1984 presents the opportunity to change things. Without the Beyonder, many things would change from the very start, and from there, many others could. That's something it has in common with the What If mindset. What's fundamentally different, is that this isn't an alternate world, it isn't an imaginary story (no more than those of the regular MU). Curiously, the second paragraph is totally correct, letters A and B properly assigned Ok, Taking the second paragraph, we can essentially kill two birds with one stone. By taking your idea but going back to 1973 instead of 1984, we can avoid all the post #251 crap AND keep Gwen alive with out having any time platform or age issues to contend with. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 22:36:36 GMT
Regarding the age difference. It just occurred to me that there might even an improvement, to the original situation. The thing is, we never knew neither Peter, nor Gwen's birthday. Considering that kids are arranged in school by year of birth, in the same class, you can always have someone who is up to 364 days older/younger than another. Imagine that Gwen was born on January 1, and Perter on December 31. In that case, Gwen has always been a year older. If she "skips" a couple of years, due to time travel, she becomes a year younger. Which situation sounds better to you?  |
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 22:42:10 GMT
Regarding the age difference. It just occurred to me that there might even an improvement, to the original situation. The thing is, we never knew neither Peter, nor Gwen's birthday. Considering that kids are arranged in school by year of birth, in the same class, you can always have someone who is up to 364 days older/younger than another. Imagine that Gwen was born on January 1, and Perter on December 31. In that case, Gwen has always been a year older. If she "skips" a couple of years, due to time travel, she becomes a year younger. Which situation sounds better to you? Actually if you read my last post, that's the one I like the best. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 22:45:14 GMT
By taking your idea but going back to 1973 instead of 1984 Why would the Beyonder revert the universe, to a "previously saved version", if I'm allowed the computer user analogy here? And no, it can't be any other Marvel character. No one else had that omnipotence, not even Eternity. |
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 22:46:10 GMT
Regarding the age difference. It just occurred to me that there might even an improvement, to the original situation. The thing is, we never knew neither Peter, nor Gwen's birthday. Considering that kids are arranged in school by year of birth, in the same class, you can always have someone who is up to 364 days older/younger than another. Imagine that Gwen was born on January 1, and Perter on December 31. In that case, Gwen has always been a year older. If she "skips" a couple of years, due to time travel, she becomes a year younger. Which situation sounds better to you? Actually if you read my last post, that's the one I like the best. The one where Peter could be a year younger? |
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 22:57:13 GMT
No, no, no.
First, To simply start a new comic that takes up from a past point in time, there really is no need for any kind of supernatural backstory. You just start a comic based on the premise you have.
Your premise is to start a comic from #251 and move forward but not have any of the incredulous B.S. that happened after #251. Let's call this comic "Realistic Spider-man" #1 You move forward from this point. Is this your basic core desire?
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