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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 5, 2014 9:56:21 GMT
We're already discussing about how to do it. But I think the "when" is just as important. There's three basic options: - Do it in the beginning. This isn't really an option, because with a complete reboot of the franchise, you get something like Ultimate Spider-Man, a different character in a different world. Earth-1610 in this case.
- Do it in the here and now. This is what most people want, which are the pros and cons?
- Pros. You satisfy most of the fans. You keep 50+ years of continuity. You get to update the character. Gwen's influence could be beneficial to the mood of the story.
- Cons. Being in the spotlight, you get more editorial pressure, which means less creativity. Most of the continuity you're trying to protect, is laughable. You update the character. No mater what method is used, to bring her back, she will have suffered a traumatic experience, or will be bewilderedly displaced in time.
[/ol] [li]Do it in an intermediate point in time. I don't think anyone will want to reject the Lee/Ditko/Romita legacy. But after that, where to make the cut? You could do it right before her death, but you'd be giving voice to those who think it was an important moment in comic history. Besides, it would be an alternate earth, too. The only way to make it, so it still would be Earth-616, is by using the storyline I outlined in the "how" thread. If you use Deus ex machina devices to place the story in other eras, you get an alternate earth, too.[/li] [/ul] Summarizing, I don't see a better time to do it than April, 1984.
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Post by dav on Jun 6, 2014 22:03:30 GMT
It could be argued that Ultimate Spider-man was an attempt to do what you want to do but instead of an intermediate point just go back to the very beginning. For a new reader, this was great, but for an older reader (like me) considering the drastic changes, this was blasphemy! I appreciate the significance of 1984 for you, but for me, personally, if I were to choose a "when" it would be 1973 and Gwen wouldn't die and screw the people who consider #121 to be important. But that's just me! Also, if you are going to show respect for the #121 preservation people, by creating a timeline fork in 1984, why wouldn't you just leave Gwen dead? You know as well as I do just how fanatical those people are!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 6, 2014 22:19:32 GMT
It could be argued that Ultimate Spider-man was an attempt to do what you want to do but instead of an intermediate point just go back to the very beginning. For a new reader, this was great, but for an older reader (like me) considering the drastic changes, this was blasphemy! I appreciate the significance of 1984 for you, but for me, personally, if I were to choose a "when" it would be 1973 and Gwen wouldn't die and screw the people who consider #121 to be important. But that's just me! Also, if you are going to show respect for the #121 preservation people, by creating a timeline fork in 1984, why wouldn't you just leave Gwen dead? You know as well as I do just how fanatical those people are! I would explain to those arguing, that I'm talking about a fork, where two universes separate form one another, but were identical in the beginning. An alternate universe has versions of the characters who were never the same, and don't share a common history up to any point. It could be made that way, but I don't know of any. 1973. I could live with that, but without the presence of someone like the Beyonder in the story, you would have to go all Deus ex machina, Not totally against it, I just prefer to use the elements in place, plus Stern's run was so good. The fanatics could still have the current Earth-616 to dance over Gwen's grave. I expect that would distract them a little. Besides, Gwen would not return on day one of Marvel 1984, it would catch them by surprise
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 7:06:18 GMT
It could be argued that Ultimate Spider-man was an attempt to do what you want to do but instead of an intermediate point just go back to the very beginning. For a new reader, this was great, but for an older reader (like me) considering the drastic changes, this was blasphemy! I appreciate the significance of 1984 for you, but for me, personally, if I were to choose a "when" it would be 1973 and Gwen wouldn't die and screw the people who consider #121 to be important. But that's just me! Also, if you are going to show respect for the #121 preservation people, by creating a timeline fork in 1984, why wouldn't you just leave Gwen dead? You know as well as I do just how fanatical those people are! I would explain to those arguing, that I'm talking about a fork, where two universes separate form one another, but were identical in the beginning. An alternate universe has versions of the characters who were never the same, and don't share a common history up to any point. It could be made that way, but I don't know of any. 1973. I could live with that, but without the presence of someone like the Beyonder in the story, you would have to go all Deus ex machina, Not totally against it, I just prefer to use the elements in place, plus Stern's run was so good. The fanatics could still have the current Earth-616 to dance over Gwen's grave. I expect that would distract them a little. Besides, Gwen would not return on day one of Marvel 1984, it would catch them by surprise To go with the 1973 reboot it wouldn't take much, although there would be a need to fabricate some drama. All it would take is to have Peter clobber Goblin with about 10% more force at that crucial point and Goblin would have been dazed for about another ten seconds giving Peter the time he needed to save Gwen. Hell, even Dr. Strange had THAT much mystical power!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 7:18:15 GMT
Obviously, changing the outcome wouldn't take much. Creating that alternate universe would. Of you could just have a giant What If from that point forward.
About the drama. There's been much talk in recent years, specially from writers in the industry, insisting in the necessity of drama to keep things interesting, but I don't see much drama in the Stern run and yet, it was the best one.
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Post by KurtW95 on Jun 7, 2014 8:52:36 GMT
I don't see why they can't do it in the present. As long as there's a capable writer, it should work fine.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 12:11:09 GMT
I don't see why they can't do it in the present. As long as there's a capable writer, it should work fine. Cons. Being in the spotlight, you get more editorial pressure, which means less creativity. Most of the continuity you're trying to protect, is laughable. You update the character. No matter what method is used, to bring her back, she will have suffered a traumatic experience, or will be bewilderedly displaced in time. They can do it, but I doubt I'd like the result, no matter how capable, the writer tasked with it, turns out to be.
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 13:13:29 GMT
1973 reboot would be quite easy. Just before Gwen was killed, Spidey clobbered GG with a punch meant to knock him out. He was too weak to do this, but if a supernatural being gave Peter just 10% more strength, Peter would have been able to daze GG enough to give him enough time to rescue Gwen from the bridge. He gets her to safety, she doesn't die and the story can go forward from there. Yes it has that "What If" story written all over it, but then again, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad starting point for the reboot. Peter might have to go on the run for a few months while Gwen and Robertson (and even Norman) clear his name, but then he could come back. Yes, there would be some messy stuff to clear up in this new timeline but it would get rid of the Clone Saga, and Now that Norman is sane again he could clear up the Sins Past stuff using your story, admitting that he didn't "do" Gwen, etc.
OR we could just use the What If story and a supernatural being compels Peter to dive after Gwen instead of using his webbing, and just continue from there. Even Dr. Strange would have the power to do this!
This was written on the fly! Please excuse the jumping around!
Whoops! it ends up I'm repeating myself from four posts earlier! I thought that post got lost when the server went down a few hours ago! Sorry for the rerun guys!
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 13:17:48 GMT
Obviously, changing the outcome wouldn't take much. Creating that alternate universe would. Of you could just have a giant What If from that point forward. About the drama. There's been much talk in recent years, specially from writers in the industry, insisting in the necessity of drama to keep things interesting, but I don't see much drama in the Stern run and yet, it was the best one. Maybe drama isn't the best word. Maybe intriguing is more appropriate. Even in the most groan-worthy stories there is a desire to see how the writers plan on pulling the story together. The outrage and criticism comes afterward!
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 13:21:28 GMT
I don't see why they can't do it in the present. As long as there's a capable writer, it should work fine. That is my preference as well. However there would most likely be as sizeable a market for this idea, as there was for Ultimate Spider-man, although personally Ultimate didn't do anything for me.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 13:31:10 GMT
He gets her to safety, she doesn't die and the story can go forward from there. Yes it has that "What If" story written all over it, but then again, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad starting point for the reboot. Peter might have to go on the run for a few months while Gwen and Robertson (and even Norman) clear his name, but then he could come back. Yes, there would be some messy stuff to clear up in this new timeline but it would get rid of the Clone Saga, and Now that Norman is sane again he could clear up the Sins Past stuff using your story, admitting that he didn't "do" Gwen, etc. It wouldn't be bad, just be clear that this concept is a 100% What If. The events change just for the sake of it. I would go for it, but what about the rest? The point I don't get is about Peter being on the run, why do they have to clear his name? And why would Norman help? When did he solve his mental problems?
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 13:32:53 GMT
I don't see why they can't do it in the present. As long as there's a capable writer, it should work fine. That is my preference as well. However there would most likely be as sizeable a market for this idea, as there was for Ultimate Spider-man, although personally Ultimate didn't do anything for me. Of course it didn't do anything for you, it was a new character. His name was Peter Parker, just not the one you grew up with.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 13:34:42 GMT
Whoops! it ends up I'm repeating myself from four posts earlier! I thought that post got lost when the server went down a few hours ago! Sorry for the rerun guys!
It didn't, my post below is the reply I gave
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Post by dav on Jun 7, 2014 14:24:42 GMT
He gets her to safety, she doesn't die and the story can go forward from there. Yes it has that "What If" story written all over it, but then again, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad starting point for the reboot. Peter might have to go on the run for a few months while Gwen and Robertson (and even Norman) clear his name, but then he could come back. Yes, there would be some messy stuff to clear up in this new timeline but it would get rid of the Clone Saga, and Now that Norman is sane again he could clear up the Sins Past stuff using your story, admitting that he didn't "do" Gwen, etc. It wouldn't be bad, just be clear that this concept is a 100% What If. The events change just for the sake of it. I would go for it, but what about the rest? The point I don't get is about Peter being on the run, why do they have to clear his name? And why would Norman help? When did he solve his mental problems? This was all in the "What If" issue. There are a lot of details in it that would take forever for me to summarize, But suffice it to say, that the "what if" moment was Peter diving after Gwen rather than using his webbing. To create the alternate timeline, you have a mystical superbeing (your choice within the polytheistic Marvel Universe) let's say go back in time and want to correct this because Peter has "earned" a correction in his life due to something he has done (insert noble deed here!) A subtle suggestion is planted in Peter's brain to dive after her as opposed to using his webbing, even though his webbing has proven successful in almost all similar situations. So he dives, saves her life, etc.
There are in fact ways to diverge from this What If story that could make it less messy, but I just figured, since the story was already there just run with it!
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Post by Ozymandias on Jun 7, 2014 14:37:33 GMT
Well, there you have it. I haven't read the What If, because I don't really like them. They are isolated, imaginary stories that carry no extra weight. As Alan Moore pointed out, they're all imaginary stories, but those between continuity have an added value, I feel more inclined to read them, because they focus on a universe filled with characters who interact, and whom I've been following for long. The What If scenario, as the basis of a new continuum, doesn't fully work for me, as it has a lesser degree of reality. To avoid the new universe being a What If scenario, you need to make it possible with the elements present. I don't recall any character in the MU, back in 1973, being so godlike as to be able to pull it off.
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