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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 5, 2018 12:49:45 GMT
Hmm, I see two problems with the "Peter deserves" argument: - I don't agree with the premise. The way we see the character treating his girlfriend, she should've left him long before her death.
- I wouldn't expect much from the universe; in this sense, the series is honest: if you do good you will probably get shit. On the other hand: if you do bad, you'll get instant and appropriate punishment (yeah, right).
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Post by dav on Mar 5, 2018 16:44:31 GMT
Hmm, I see two problems with the "Peter deserves" argument: - I don't agree with the premise. The way we see the character treating his girlfriend, she should've left him long before her death.
- I wouldn't expect much from the universe; in this sense, the series is honest: if you do good you will probably get shit. On the other hand: if you do bad, you'll get instant and appropriate punishment (yeah, right).
#1 I guess we saw different things. I saw Peter doing everything he could to love her, but at the same time protect her and his secret identity. I saw him torturing himself, because he wanted to tell her his secret identity but he was afraid if he did she might hate him because she wrongfully blamed Spider-man for her father's death. You see a different side of the story than I do #2 All I know is this: For whatever reason, I want Peter and Gwen to be able to have the life that they were denied because of her death.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 5, 2018 17:05:32 GMT
What you saw is pretty much what I would describe, and you yourself see that the reason why he kept her in the dark, was fear of being rejected; not a very altruistic thing to do (unlike most of his actions towards the rest of the human race).
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Post by dav on Mar 5, 2018 17:50:12 GMT
What you saw is pretty much what I would describe, and you yourself see that the reason why he kept her in the dark, was fear of being rejected; not a very altruistic thing to do (unlike most of his actions towards the rest of the human race). Well, in that way he was an equal opportunity offender. He kept EVERYBODY in the dark even though he cared about them too. Peter didn't tell Osborn, Capt. Stacy or MJ, they found out by themselves and he proposed to MJ at a time when he thought she didn't know he was Spider-man. Yes, fear of being rejected was one aspect, but when the time was right he would have revealed himself. Now you sound like you don't WANT Peter and Gwen together. If Gwen were to come back what would you want to have happen to her?
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 5, 2018 21:27:15 GMT
The only one who got trough half the crap he pulled on her, was Aunt May, so I imagine a reaction in line with the one shown in "The Conversation" (times two).
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Post by dav on Mar 5, 2018 22:55:34 GMT
The only one who got trough half the crap he pulled on her, was Aunt May, so I imagine a reaction in line with the one shown in "The Conversation" (times two). It still doesn't answer the question Juan. If Gwen were to come back what would you want to happen to her? I might be wrong but it sounds like the primary objective for you is to restore Gwen's virtuous memory by retconning Sins Past. After that, whether she comes back or not doesn't matter. My primary objective is for Gwen and Peter to have the life that they were denied because of her death. I don't see Peter as some kind of jerk, I see him as someone who wants to fulfill his vow to Uncle Ben and not allow his secret identity to be revealed lest it put the people he cares about at risk. I see Peter, if anything caring too much about the people he cares about and in the process torturing himself. I don't see him intentionally trying to hurt his loved ones, rather to protect them. I guess we have never been on the same page regarding our objectives, even though I have tried to be as open, honest and clear about mine. Maybe our entire conversation over these past few years has been a waste of time. If so, it is a real shame.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 6, 2018 8:53:26 GMT
If you had read "The Conversation", which I'm guessing you haven't, you would have a more clear idea of what I was saying: the relationship continuing, but not without having suffered because of the deception. As for the last paragraph, now you're changing your argument. Gwen's death proved that not telling her, in any case, endangered her further, not the other way around. It was the baddies, from whom he should've kept his secret safe, and he failed to do so with the biggest one among them. Who's to blame?
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Post by dav on Mar 6, 2018 12:10:53 GMT
If you had read "The Conversation", which I'm guessing you haven't, you would have a more clear idea of what I was saying: the relationship continuing, but not without having suffered because of the deception. As for the last paragraph, now you're changing your argument. Gwen's death proved that not telling her, in any case, endangered her further, not the other way around. It was the baddies, from whom he should've kept his secret safe, and he failed to do so with the biggest one among them. Who's to blame? You're right I didn't read "The Conversation." Of course if everybody was so understanding and forgiving, then Peter would have forgiven Gwen for Sins Past, making your retcon unnecessary. Of course sticking with Spider-man canon, EVERYBODY including Gwen and Aunt May had their little secrets. MJ should have told Peter that she knew his identity, before they ever started serious dating. MJ should have told Peter she knew about Gwen's affair with Norman way back when and he would have broken up with her thus saving him all those years of guilt over her death. She would have still been murdered by Osborn but Spidey would never have been involved. Peter would have realized Gwen was nothing more than slut and would have started dating MJ. Then of course there's Aunt May who, if she told Peter about her fight with Ben, he might have realized that Ben's death wasn't all his fault and he wouldn't have gone down this path of self-loathing and taken on all the world's problems himself, which means he may never have fought the Green Goblin and Osborn would never have found out Peter's identity. Another possibility is that MJ tells Peter about Gwen and Norman and he breaks up with Gwen and never wants anything to do with MJ for being a scheming bitch. Yeah, Peter was a real prick for treating all his "open and honest" friends so badly. His friends are no better than he was and they deserved whatever perceived mistreatment Peter inflicted upon them. But all this "what if-ing" is Uatu's job, not mine. Now for Paragraph #2: Had Gwen told Peter about her affair with Norman, then Peter would have broken up with HER. She was just as selfish and deceptive as he was. She was already in danger whether Peter/Spider-man was in the picture or not. Gwen having an affair AND children with a madman and she wants to keep him away from his children, and to stop this from happening he murders her. Yeah, who IS to blame? Certainly not Peter, he knew nothing about all this intrigue. P.S. if MJ had disclosed that she knew he was Spider-man way back when, he probably would have fallen in love with HER and whether Gwen died or not, Peter would not have been involved in any way.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 6, 2018 13:47:19 GMT
All that is about retcons that have little to do with the spirit, if not directly the letter, of the original story. If I had my way, it would all go down the rabbit hole. Not having it, I just chose to ignore it and keep to the originals; when re-reading them, is the best way for them to make any sense.
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Post by dav on Mar 6, 2018 14:52:40 GMT
All that is about retcons that have little to do with the spirit, if not directly the letter, of the original story. If I had my way, it would all go down the rabbit hole. Not having it, I just chose to ignore it and keep to the originals; when re-reading them, is the best way for them to make any sense. Agreed, but to persecute one character for his actions and excuse the other characters for similar actions is prejudicial. Peter made the best decisions possible given the information he had at the time. One can always Monday morning quarterback and break out a bunch of coulda, shoulda, wouldas, but none of these characters can read minds or foresee the future. It simply is what it is. Peter loved Gwen and he made choices that were in the best interest of the both of them TO THE BEST OF HIS KNOWLEDGE. His actions were not malicious they were benevolent, it's just the results were negative. Peter loved Gwen and would never do anything to hurt her intentionally, but sometimes one has two bad choices and one has to choose the one that he thinks will cause the LEAST harm. So if you want to fault Peter for being human and making the wrong choice, then everyone else in his little world is also at fault. Again, I see Gwen as Peter's true love and all I want is for them to have the chance to live some semblance of the life they were denied by her death. Yes there would be ups and downs, just like there were with him and MJ, but overall they would have had a good life together. It's that I want to see.
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 6, 2018 15:26:07 GMT
Similar actions from the other parties involved, only took place in the retcons.
I want the same outcome, but not without passing the bill first. Without the GG around, Conway would've had a much harder time, getting rid of Gwen.
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Post by dav on Mar 6, 2018 20:03:31 GMT
Similar actions from the other parties involved, only took place in the retcons. I want the same outcome, but not without passing the bill first. Without the GG around, Conway would've had a much harder time, getting rid of Gwen. It still doesn't change that fact that it's Spider-man canon. Also May's being pissed about Peter not telling her about Spider-man is bullshit because back before the retcons she hated and feared Spider-man due to JJJ's editorials, and she was constantly on the brink of a major coronary so if Peter had revealed himself to her back then, she would have kicked the bucket. Gwen could have easily been made to die in a similar fashion as her father, just collateral damage. Some villain shoots at Spidey, he ducks and it hits Gwen. If the writers were bound and determined to kill Gwen they could have found a hundred different ways to do it. GG was just ONE way. They probably WANTED to kill off GG because this split personality trope was getting old, but just like with Gwen, they just couldn't leave it alone. Say what you want to, but Peter is a great guy, but not perfect, and the mistakes that you want to condemn him for, are the same mistakes the supporting characters made as well, even before the retcons. IMHO the fact that both Peter and Gwen went through all this adversity and STILL ended up together is indicative of their "true love." Just a bit of comic relief here, I'm sure you've seen the show "Friends" and the on again, off again romance between Ross and Rachel. Wouldn't it be funny if Peter asked Gwen about banging Norman and she used the excuse "we were on a break!"
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 6, 2018 20:22:22 GMT
Yeah, I can picture it and, using the same tone Ross did, it'd be kind of funny.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 11, 2022 10:00:49 GMT
Yeah, based upon my experiences with Mets, he was biased and was a pro-MJ person. Far from being the impartial moderator he was supposed to be! On that topic, he's been pestering me lately bc of my political views, and it turns out... he's not longer a mod there! (Even though he still talks as if he were, I had to call him out on that.)
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Post by KurtW95 on May 14, 2022 4:09:45 GMT
Marvel has been teasing Gwen lately with the cover to the tenth comic in Wells and Romita Jr's new run. But I'm not getting my hopes up because they've pulled this too many times. Though I suppose if they were to finally do it, it would make sense to have a Romita be involved. Though if she couldn't be with Peter, I don't know how worth it it would be. The MJ having a family twist is odd and I don't know where they're going with it. But if the real Gwen ever returns, she needs to be with Peter.
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