|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 2, 2018 6:33:20 GMT
I was referring to that and the whole death business. But yes, that most famous sound effect has a repercussion I don't see being commented: it basically nullifies the big "great power/great responsibility" mantra.
Agreed, Conway used the character less frequently. But the funny thing is that as much as he said to like MJ, he DID portrait her in a different way. Right before the clone saga, it was a completely different character, which makes you wonder, what was it that he really liked that much? The red hair?
|
|
|
Post by dav on Mar 3, 2018 3:31:48 GMT
I was referring to that and the whole death business. But yes, that most famous sound effect has a repercussion I don't see being commented: it basically nullifies the big "great power/great responsibility" mantra. Agreed, Conway used the character less frequently. But the funny thing is that as much as he said to like MJ, he DID portrait her in a different way. Right before the clone saga, it was a completely different character, which makes you wonder, what was it that he really liked that much? The red hair? Yeah, that sound effect! Like I said, I STILL get a little sick feeling in my stomach when I read it. I guess the writers needed to show exactly HOW she died so there would be no doubt. But then again, Norman Osborn should have conclusively died as well! It was interesting how Gwen died despite all Peter's efforts to save her and how Norman "died" and Peter was NOT responsible for it although he came close. An interesting irony, and probably intentional on the part of the writers. If they had just let her rest in peace, I could have lived with it, but with the Clone Saga and Norman's "resurrection" it doesn't feel right. Yeah, they started changing MJ pretty much from #122 on. Was MJ REALLY more popular, or was that just the writers justification for killing Gwen off? Yeah, she was a vivacious character, but I never saw her and Peter as ever being compatible, no matter how much the writers tried. I think you're right, Conway has a "type" and MJ was his "type" and he was trying to live vicariously through Peter AND write her to suit his tastes, thus the change before the Clone Saga! I mean I have a "type" as well, and brunettes are my preference. In the Spidey Universe my "type" would be a brunette version of Debra Whitman... just a little more mentally stable! One can see how Peter might connect with SOME of the women in his life. Black Cat, Silk, etc. The superpower thing. But as for compatible personalities, I don't know. Carlie Cooper, the crimefighting angle mostly, but I CAN see some compatibility. Jean Dewolff, Peter might have had been attracted to her, but he never knew her true feelings until after her death. This seems more like a grief crush, where you appreciate someone BECAUSE they're gone, and not so much because of compatibility, although the crimefighting aspect is there. Liz Allen and Betty Brandt, I see them as mostly "young love" an immature infatuation, but not much more than that. with MJ, I never saw any compatibility, but I can see how two people can grow accustomed to each other and share a lot of experiences, but MJ was kind of a rebound from Gwen. If she hadn't died, MJ would have been nothing more than a friend, albeit a good friend. I haven't been a regular reader since the '70's but Gwen is about the only one that I can see Peter connecting with given both compatibility and circumstance. Sure, people can fall in love and get married to a variety of different people and MAKE it work, but IMHO Peter and Gwen just came together naturally and if it wasn't for her death, they would be together. Sure Peter can fall in love with other characters, but based on the way their characters were written and how they came together, yeah, Gwen is Peter's TRUE love. Who knows, maybe it has to do with circumstance as to how one feels about these things. Maybe if I had started reading Spider-man later, like in the Eighties, maybe I would have seen MJ as THE ONE, but having read from the beginning, Gwen was the one that was EXPECTED to end up with Peter, just like Lois Lane was expected to end up with Superman. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to see how Marvel decides to play this out. Hopefully in a way that can bring SOME kind of closure and resolution for the Gwen fans!
|
|
|
Post by dav on Mar 3, 2018 6:41:54 GMT
Although I haven't read the Spider-Gwen comics (yet) I have done enough research to get a good idea of the tone of the story. Although I obviously would prefer 616 Gwen to be resurrected in some way, I think my second choice would be Spider-Gwen. For some reason it just FEELS right. As well as the reasons that I have stated earlier, the effect of the death of Earth 65 Peter Parker on her would be great material for the writers. The parallels of their histories gives them an experiential connection where they would have an understanding and empathy for the other. It could make for some deep moments.
Would it restore the Karmic balance of bringing back 616 Gwen? No, but I wonder if maybe after 45 years the idea of the Peter/Gwen reunion might need to evolve. Anyway, these are just my thoughts. On one hand, bringing 616 Gwen back would right a wrong and allow an unfinished chapter to finally be finished. On the other hand, maybe that chapter has been left unfinished for too long and it's time to find another way to resolve this tragedy. Either way, IMHO, SOMETHING needs to be done, because these stories that have some connection to Gwen are getting more twisted and more perverse and corrupting her memory more and more.
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 3, 2018 7:17:39 GMT
Was MJ more popular? Impossible to say nowadays. She clearly made more of an impact, because she was more in tune with the changes of the time, but that doesn't mean she was.
I recall an instance where Mister Mets pointed to a really old poll, to prove that she WAS more popular, but when I perused the data, I found out that the percentages were based in something like 10 votes or similar. I still laugh my ass off.
|
|
|
Post by dav on Mar 3, 2018 14:37:15 GMT
Was MJ more popular? Impossible to say nowadays. She clearly made more of an impact, because she was more in tune with the changes of the time, but that doesn't mean she was. I recall an instance where Mister Mets pointed to a really old poll, to prove that she WAS more popular, but when I perused the data, I found out that the percentages were based in something like 10 votes or similar. I still laugh my ass off. Yeah, based upon my experiences with Mets, he was biased and was a pro-MJ person. Far from being the impartial moderator he was supposed to be! The other thing is MAYBE people liked her character better, but, if asked, who would they consider to be a better match for Peter? I feel very confident in saying it would be Gwen that would have gotten the most votes! Popularity is one thing, compatibility is another.
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 3, 2018 14:43:18 GMT
You have a much better opinion of fans than I do. I think that the average MJ fan will think she's the perfect match. I say this based on past discussions I've read over at CBR, you can check them if you want further proof.
As for moderators being objective, that's not possible, the most you can hope for is one who recognises his/her own bias and is forward about it.
|
|
|
Post by dav on Mar 4, 2018 3:59:55 GMT
You have a much better opinion of fans than I do. I think that the average MJ fan will think she's the perfect match. I say this based on past discussions I've read over at CBR, you can check them if you want further proof. As for moderators being objective, that's not possible, the most you can hope for is one who recognises his/her own bias and is forward about it. You''re probably right about fans thinking MJ is more compatible. As I talked about earlier, had they read Spider-man from the beginning, then they would feel one way, but jumping in the middle where Gwen was not in the picture, they grew accustomed to MJ and Peter and would consider MJ to be Peter's "true love." Still, even in the wedding issue Peter was clearly still carrying a torch for Gwen. You could see the same thing in Spider-man: Blue and even in Sins Past. MJ was always living in Gwen's shadow. MJ was not his FIRST choice no matter how much the MJ fans like her. I mean I get it. You got a bunch of horny teenage boys seeing a vivacious, sexy woman like MJ, they're gonna go where their hormones take them! This may in fact be the case with Conway. Maybe the first issue he read of Spider-man was #36 when they introduced MJ and his hormonal radar was locked in! As for me, I will admit I didn't like Gwen when she was first introduced. She was conceited and arrogant, but her character was transformed, especially with Romita at the artistic helm, and you could see her and Peter growing closer and closer as time went on with MJ still around to be the life of the party. To me, Their relationship was organic. There were ups and downs, but no matter what, they still kept coming back to each other. Yes, that was the work of the writers, but the writers never seemed to put that same chemistry in with any of Peter's other girlfriends. For me, yes it was cute to watch, but none of the other girlfriends really FELT right, to me at least. Gwen was the only one I ever saw Peter with. MJ seemed to love Peter more than he loved her. She would always be second to Gwen and she accepted that. For that reason, maybe that's what MJ fans liked about her. She was always there for him even though she knew she would have to take a back seat to both Gwen and his vow to Uncle Ben. I can honestly admit that Gwen wouldn't have taken a lot of the crap that MJ took! In an attempt to appease an MJ fan who I was debating, I made the statement that Peter loved MJ and Gwen equally, just in different ways. In a way that's true. I see Peter loving MJ partially because she knew and accepted Peter's vow to Uncle Ben and MENTALLY supported him in fulfilling that vow. It was a somewhat pragmatic love. With Gwen, I see Peter willing to make some compromises for her that he wouldn't have been willing to make with MJ. That doesn't mean Gwen wouldn't have supported Peter, it just would have been in a different way. I see Gwen as playing a more proactive role in Peter's crime fighting. Where MJ was more of a doting wife, Gwen would have been an active participant. Again, maybe this is what MJ fans liked about her. She was more subservient than Gwen would have been. I don't say that in a bad way either. MJ was more empathetic than Gwen would have been. MJ was more like a cheerleader where Gwen was more like a coach! For this reason I understand the MJ fans, wanting Peter to have a cheerleader for a wife! For me I would rather Peter have a teammate for a wife, albeit a beautiful teammate! You're right about the moderators. I still think they could make more of an effort to stay neutral and keep their personal feelings toward the subject AND the members writing comments to themselves. Of course that's the way it would be in an ideal world!
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 4, 2018 8:46:47 GMT
The argument about your entry point in the series, as to why you like a character over another, sounds reasonable but didn't work in my case. I started reading ASM 40 years ago (ouch). The first Spider-Man comic I can recall reading was a compilation with issues 13-18, not much later I got another one with issues 25-31; in those, the girlfriend was Betty, and yet I never grew attached to the character. Somewhere in between the two compilations, or maybe after (I can't exactly remember), I started buying the regular series, which around here was publishing the end of the Gwen era (Conway already). I didn't get to read much of the Gwen issues until after reading about her death and most of the MJ era (basically Wein). For a more detailed account of that time, here's a previous recollection: Out of all those [ASM #129-150], I only read #129, 130, 132 and 150, at the end of the 70's or beginning of the 80's. It wasn't my decision, I would've bought anything with Spider-Man on it, but... In Spain, #129-149, were originally published between July 1974 and November 1975, almost on par with the originals, but I didn't catch those on time, because I was very little and had no budget whatsoever to work with. I didn't start buying comics until a few years later, and at that time, they were publishing the end of the Lee era and the beginning of the Conway run (they had caught up with the american edition, and needed some time to create a buffer). Back issues were almost impossible to find, so that was it for me. I should've been able to read them, but when we reached #63 of the Spanish edition (ASM #128 precisely), the editors did the strangest thing I've seen; they started numbering the series with a letter suffix (63A) and started to publish new material (ASM #150). They followed this scheme for 9 issues (or 5 months) all the way to 63I. At that point, they stopped publication for a couple of months, only to realise that numbers were invented for... well, numbering, so they switched back and to a monthly schedule, for the last 4 months (64-67); in total, they burnt more than two years worth of ASM (#150-175, in just 10 months). Not surprisingly, the editor closed the doors and the rights where transferred. The next publisher was even worse, if you can believe that, and reprinted erratically. 3 issues of that time period (#129, 130 and 132) were chosen. Despite reading a comic were the main female character was MJ, I always liked Gwen more, which also speaks about Conway not treating the character that badly, because with the exception of ASM #31, his Gwen was the one I knew until I could start tracking down back issues, or buy some out-of-order reprints the following publisher included in the main title, at the beginning of the 80's. I don't read the "Betty and Veronica" era as you do, I think most MJ fans see her role in the series during that time, the same way I do: MJ liked to party, to tease and to flirt; Peter was her preferred target, but at no point did it gave me the impression the writer was trying to depict her as "in love". The hing her fans liked, which I don't, was that she was commitment-free, she wouldn't get bound by any relationship, as she made clear to Harry on occasion. You got a bunch of horny teenage boys seeing a vivacious, sexy woman like MJ, they're gonna go where their hormones take them! This may in fact be the case with Conway. Maybe the first issue he read of Spider-man was #36 when they introduced MJ and his hormonal radar was locked in! [...] In an attempt to appease an MJ fan who I was debating, I made the statement that Peter loved MJ and Gwen equally, just in different ways. In a way that's true. I see Peter loving MJ partially because she knew and accepted Peter's vow to Uncle Ben and MENTALLY supported him in fulfilling that vow. It was a somewhat pragmatic love. With Gwen, I see Peter willing to make some compromises for her that he wouldn't have been willing to make with MJ. That doesn't mean Gwen wouldn't have supported Peter, it just would have been in a different way. I see Gwen as playing a more proactive role in Peter's crime fighting. Where MJ was more of a doting wife, Gwen would have been an active participant. Again, maybe this is what MJ fans liked about her. She was more subservient than Gwen would have been. I don't say that in a bad way either. MJ was more empathetic than Gwen would have been. MJ was more like a cheerleader where Gwen was more like a coach! For this reason I understand the MJ fans, wanting Peter to have a cheerleader for a wife! For me I would rather Peter have a teammate for a wife, albeit a beautiful teammate! It's a pity I don't frequent CBR anymore, I would post it just to see them shit bricks!
|
|
|
Post by dav on Mar 4, 2018 11:11:50 GMT
The argument about your entry point in the series, as to why you like a character over another, sounds reasonable but didn't work in my case. I started reading ASM 40 years ago (ouch). The first Spider-Man comic I can recall reading was a compilation with issues 13-18, not much later I got another one with issues 25-31; in those, the girlfriend was Betty, and yet I never grew attached to the character. Somewhere in between the two compilations, or maybe after (I can't exactly remember), I started buying the regular series, which around here was publishing the end of the Gwen era (Conway already). I didn't get to read much of the Gwen issues until after reading about her death and most of the MJ era (basically Wein). For a more detailed account of that time, here's a previous recollection: Out of all those [ASM #129-150], I only read #129, 130, 132 and 150, at the end of the 70's or beginning of the 80's. It wasn't my decision, I would've bought anything with Spider-Man on it, but... In Spain, #129-149, were originally published between July 1974 and November 1975, almost on par with the originals, but I didn't catch those on time, because I was very little and had no budget whatsoever to work with. I didn't start buying comics until a few years later, and at that time, they were publishing the end of the Lee era and the beginning of the Conway run (they had caught up with the american edition, and needed some time to create a buffer). Back issues were almost impossible to find, so that was it for me. I should've been able to read them, but when we reached #63 of the Spanish edition (ASM #128 precisely), the editors did the strangest thing I've seen; they started numbering the series with a letter suffix (63A) and started to publish new material (ASM #150). They followed this scheme for 9 issues (or 5 months) all the way to 63I. At that point, they stopped publication for a couple of months, only to realise that numbers were invented for... well, numbering, so they switched back and to a monthly schedule, for the last 4 months (64-67); in total, they burnt more than two years worth of ASM (#150-175, in just 10 months). Not surprisingly, the editor closed the doors and the rights where transferred. The next publisher was even worse, if you can believe that, and reprinted erratically. 3 issues of that time period (#129, 130 and 132) were chosen. Despite reading a comic were the main female character was MJ, I always liked Gwen more, which also speaks about Conway not treating the character that badly, because with the exception of ASM #31, his Gwen was the one I knew until I could start tracking down back issues, or buy some out-of-order reprints the following publisher included in the main title, at the beginning of the 80's. I don't read the "Betty and Veronica" era as you do, I think most MJ fans see her role in the series during that time, the same way I do: MJ liked to party, to tease and to flirt; Peter was her preferred target, but at no point did it gave me the impression the writer was trying to depict her as "in love". The hing her fans liked, which I don't, was that she was commitment-free, she wouldn't get bound by any relationship, as she made clear to Harry on occasion. You got a bunch of horny teenage boys seeing a vivacious, sexy woman like MJ, they're gonna go where their hormones take them! This may in fact be the case with Conway. Maybe the first issue he read of Spider-man was #36 when they introduced MJ and his hormonal radar was locked in! [...] In an attempt to appease an MJ fan who I was debating, I made the statement that Peter loved MJ and Gwen equally, just in different ways. In a way that's true. I see Peter loving MJ partially because she knew and accepted Peter's vow to Uncle Ben and MENTALLY supported him in fulfilling that vow. It was a somewhat pragmatic love. With Gwen, I see Peter willing to make some compromises for her that he wouldn't have been willing to make with MJ. That doesn't mean Gwen wouldn't have supported Peter, it just would have been in a different way. I see Gwen as playing a more proactive role in Peter's crime fighting. Where MJ was more of a doting wife, Gwen would have been an active participant. Again, maybe this is what MJ fans liked about her. She was more subservient than Gwen would have been. I don't say that in a bad way either. MJ was more empathetic than Gwen would have been. MJ was more like a cheerleader where Gwen was more like a coach! For this reason I understand the MJ fans, wanting Peter to have a cheerleader for a wife! For me I would rather Peter have a teammate for a wife, albeit a beautiful teammate! It's a pity I don't frequent CBR anymore, I would post it just to see them shit bricks! I'm not any good at all this cutting and pasting stuff, so I will try and reference my comments as best I can! Please be patient and bear with me! March 4 Para #1: The idea about why one likes a character over another was just speculation on my part. I feel the same way you do. I didn't see Betty as a good fit for Peter either. Granted their temperaments were similar, but I think Betty's character had plateaued while Peter's was still developing. Getting superpowers fundamentally changed Peter. He was on his way to college and she was where she was going to be. It was nice to have a crush on an older woman, but it wasn't going anywhere. As for MJ, sure she was beautiful, vivacious and fun to be with, but that was what Peter was NOT. She made great arm candy (and did make Gwen jealous and made Peter more attractive to her) but there was nothing deeper to her, at least as she was written back then. I went through the foreign reprint crap too. I was living in England from 1973-75 and was able to catch up ALMOST to real time, but it was still basically reading from the beginning. So I guess my hypothesis was wrong. We both saw Gwen as the more compatible person for Peter, and even today she is still referred to by numerous sources as Peter's "one true love." So screw the MJ fans! They're just wrong! Maybe they prefer girls like MJ and are projecting their tastes on to Peter. Just another hypothesis! March 4 Para #2: I guess I'm TRYING to understand the MJ fans, but it still eludes me! Like I said in my last post, MJ loved Peter so much that she did make him a good wife, but she was still in Gwen's shadow. The "Betty and Veronica" era was interesting! Gwen was trying to act more like MJ and MJ was, maybe, too cool to be vulnerable, but even then MJ was on one trajectory, towards an entertainment career, while Gwen was on the same trajectory as Peter, towards a science career, biochemistry specifically. Gwen just had more in common with Peter. With Gwen out of the picture, sure, I can see Peter with MJ. Good friend, lots of shared life experiences, similar backgrounds, but when it comes to compatibility, when you put MJ right next to Gwen, Gwen comes in first. It's interesting that you preferred Gwen even during the Conway era. Maybe her character was just so right for Peter it even transcended what I consider Conway's phasing her out. It's funny, It's not like I'm projecting my own tastes onto Peter, because as I said, I'm more of a brunette man! It's just for some reason she really seems to be Peter's true love! I gotta give props to the writers for being so insightful regarding human nature! Yeah, the writers tried to explain away all MJ's shallowness during the Betty and Veronica era, but even then, she was STILL on a different personal path to Peter's where Gwen was on the SAME path. They were MEANT to be together. There was one point where the writers could have gone a different direction and I PROBABLY could have accepted it. If Gwen had gone to England after Capt. Stacy died and stayed there. I have a feeling that's what the writers wanted to do, because she and Peter were getting TOO close. This would have put their relationship on indefinite hold and even if Peter moved on, for some reason, I think I could have accepted it, but her death just leaves me with this unresolved feeling. I imagine there was hate mail to the editors and they felt pressured to bring her back, but once they did, they didn't know what to do with her! March 4 Para #3; At least you can still post on CBR! LOL I could probably get back on after this much time, and I might not be recognized, at least not right away, but bringing back Gwen is such an emotional issue to me that it's probably best to stay away so I don't risk getting in too deep again! Of course I'm not the only one. Some of those "Bring Back Gwen" arguments got pretty heated! In fact I remember reading an article about how Gwen's death is STILL one of the most controversial issues among comic book fans! It's nice to know I'm not alone! LOL Hmm... maybe you should post it! It would probably drive Mets crazy! LOL
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 4, 2018 13:41:50 GMT
I also thought Betty was older, but the official stance on her age is that she was also a teen! Of course, this was made explicit much later.
You'll be interested to know that what we consider obvious about Gwen's science career, isn't agreed upon by MJ fans. Just do a search of "MRS Degree" there and you should be able to find the exact quote.
I think that the thing with the writers (Lee) and Gwen, was more a question of what HE was projecting on the character, than of him being particularly insightful. He was most probably writing his wife as he would've liked her. That's why she was so compelling and, her relationship with Peter, so authentic.
If I post at CBR again, it won't be on the Spider-Man forum, I had enough of that.
|
|
|
Post by dav on Mar 4, 2018 19:17:16 GMT
I also thought Betty was older, but the official stance on her age is that she was also a teen! Of course, this was made explicit much later. You'll be interested to know that what we consider obvious about Gwen's science career, isn't agreed upon by MJ fans. Just do a search of "MRS Degree" there and you should be able to find the exact quote. I think that the thing with the writers (Lee) and Gwen, was more a question of what HE was projecting on the character, than of him being particularly insightful. He was most probably writing his wife as he would've liked her. That's why she was so compelling and, her relationship with Peter, so authentic. If I post at CBR again, it won't be on the Spider-Man forum, I had enough of that. I'm sure that there was some mention of Betty dropping out of high school for some reason. It's just kinda fun to talk about Peter with a cougar! That is true about the MRS Degree trope. Some chick going to college to trawl for a husband. Gwen COULD have been that type, but most of those women are pursuing degrees in teaching, or English literature. Some are targeting a specific type of guy, like pursuing a nursing degree to bag a doctor, or pre-law to bag a lawyer! It was the '60's so that might have been the way they were gonna go with Gwen, but pursuing a degree in Biochemistry is not the usual path for a MRS Degree. Then again, you have the real life story of Cindy Crawford. IQ of 156, class valedictorian in high school, academic scholarship to go to college to pursue a degree in chemical engineering, and then gave all of it up to be a supermodel! You're probably right about Lee projecting his preferences on to Gwen, but I don't see Peter as being a projection of Lee. So how did he make THEM so compatible? Also, the way the other characters were written shows a natural progression. Harry getting into drugs, because he was never gonna measure up to his dad's expectations, Flash, the football player going to Vietnam, these were not unpredictable story lines, especially at that time in the 60's. All I know is whatever happened back then, No other female character ever "fit" Peter as well as Gwen and she is still considered his "one true love." Yeah, if I were to try and get back on CBR it would be wise to stay away from the Spider-man forum as well! It was a real meat grinder! Sadly, the only issue that interests me is Peter and Gwen and finding some way for them to have the relationship they were supposed to have.
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 4, 2018 20:43:57 GMT
This was just a couple of weeks ago, was it mentioned earlier? Maybe in UToSM, but certainly not during the Ditko days; in fact, Liz making fun of her age was one of the running gags. Good point about the choice of career as an argument against the MRS Degree accusation. Theres also the question of whether Peter was a good catch, he needed a grant to even be there, after all. No, I don't think Stan saw himself in the character, but he could've seen the son he never had.
|
|
|
Post by dav on Mar 5, 2018 3:04:27 GMT
This was just a couple of weeks ago, was it mentioned earlier? Maybe in UToSM, but certainly not during the Ditko days; in fact, Liz making fun of her age was one of the running gags. Good point about the choice of career as an argument against the MRS Degree accusation. Theres also the question of whether Peter was a good catch, he needed a grant to even be there, after all. No, I don't think Stan saw himself in the character, but he could've seen the son he never had. A lot of things happened after Peter got his superpowers. There was an underlying strength and confidence that wasn't there before. He didn't flaunt it, but the women in Peter's life picked up on it intuitively (except for Aunt May of course!) There were all kinds of thought balloons where the women would say "there's something different about Peter." Was he a good catch? Not at that point, but again, the women intuitively picked up that this guy had some serious potential! He had this underlying confidence AND he was a brilliant student. Very attractive traits for a MRS Degree! Maybe Gwen was PARTIALLY doing the MRS Degree bit, in the 60's there were a lot of women who were doing that. Pursuing a degree in whatever, but having a backup plan to bag a husband. Either way, Capt Stacy approved of Peter, so Gwen knew he was "the one!" After I took some martial arts classes, the same thing happened to me. I would have guys pull that alpha male shit on me, and I would look them straight in the eye and say something like "do you really want to do this?" and their attitude would change right away. It wasn't an act either. After doing some martial arts you find out that getting punched (and knowing how to take a punch) isn't as bad as you imagined it, and you might not win a fight, but the other guy is not going to walk away unscathed. Half of what bullies do is bluffing. Call their bluff and see how fast some of them fold! That's a good point about Stan. Maybe Peter was like the son he never had and Gwen was like the daughter-in-law he wanted for his son. So does that mean Stan was Capt Stacy??
|
|
|
Post by Ozymandias on Mar 5, 2018 6:24:48 GMT
Having a grant means that you're poor, but it also means you excel, so there was potential. I'd say that, for a catch, is better to have it done, like Harry, than to have good chances of having it someday.
We could read in the thought ballots, that Peter's hidden strength was one of the things that made him attractive, but that's only good enough for dating. The fact is that she expressed her desire to marry even if he was poor, it was him who felt the pressure to succeed, in order to marry. More than the compromise that marriage means, I guess that this is what the editors didn't want for the character, success (just look how long Peter's impersonation of Tony Stark has lasted).
I don't think Stan would identify with an older man, he simply saw Gwen as a better version of his wife, and isn't that what parents want for their children? Something better?
|
|
|
Post by dav on Mar 5, 2018 8:27:43 GMT
Having a grant means that you're poor, but it also means you excel, so there was potential. I'd say that, for a catch, is better to have it done, like Harry, than to have good chances of having it someday. We could read in the thought ballots, that Peter's hidden strength was one of the things that made him attractive, but that's only good enough for dating. The fact is that she expressed her desire to marry even if he was poor, it was him who felt the pressure to succeed, in order to marry. More than the compromise that marriage means, I guess that this is what the editors didn't want for the character, success (just look how long Peter's impersonation of Tony Stark has lasted). I don't think Stan would identify with an older man, he simply saw Gwen as a better version of his wife, and isn't that what parents want for their children? Something better? That is right. She said she loved him and didn't care if he was broke. In fact that was a touching scene, her and him sitting on that park bench holding hands. (Hell, now I'm getting all choked up again!) I think both Gwen AND MJ saw that Peter was a damn good guy, with a noble character and that was what made them both fall in love with him. Yeah, his confidence was the initial attraction, but the content of his character sealed the deal. Yeah, I so much want to see Gwen (in some form) be reunited with Peter. He truly DOES deserve her love. Yes it may only be a comic book, but it would be a great inspiration to the readers. Sending them a message, that if you just hang in there, just keep doing good, the universe will see this and eventually, when the time's right, you will find the universe will bring that which you seek. Hell, the Gwen/Peter reunion issue practically writes itself!!
|
|