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Post by spiderman62 on Jan 5, 2017 14:03:14 GMT
Well, with Ben being revealed as the Jackal and with it being confirmed that Peter David and Mark Bagley are going to be working on a new Spider-related book there's rumours that there's going to be a new Scarlet Spider (or whatever) book with Ben Reilly.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 5, 2017 15:17:21 GMT
Ouch, spoiler alert, mate! I've only read the comics I've made comments about, so far up to ASM #21 and TCC #2.
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Post by spiderman62 on Jan 5, 2017 18:47:43 GMT
Oops. Sorry. My mistake.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 5, 2017 21:38:45 GMT
Ok, read TCC #3, that was a nice twist. Now let's see what Ben is on about, which is the whole point of the story.
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Post by spiderman62 on Jan 9, 2017 19:26:24 GMT
Yes. Let's see what he's on about. (I'll try not to spoil things again )
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 19, 2017 15:24:43 GMT
Yes. Let's see what he's on about. (I'll try not to spoil things again ) I don't think we need to look any further than TCC #4 for an answer to that question. Ben Reilly is just your latest mad scientist. (So much for that) Regarding spoilers, I'm still of the opinion that when entering a thread where they can happen, is up to the reader to accept the risk. There's also a spoiler tag, but its use is optional.
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Post by dav on Feb 27, 2018 1:15:57 GMT
Yes. Let's see what he's on about. (I'll try not to spoil things again ) I don't think we need to look any further than TCC #4 for an answer to that question. Ben Reilly is just your latest mad scientist. (So much for that) Regarding spoilers, I'm still of the opinion that when entering a thread where they can happen, is up to the reader to accept the risk. There's also a spoiler tag, but its use is optional. Yeah, It's becoming somewhat predictable. A clone story is gonna tease the readers with Gwen's clone , and Ben was was going to be involved in some way. I'm not impressed with the direction Slott went with this. Some audacious story that just crams old ideas into one story, kinda the way he did with Spider Island. Slott might have said he won't bring back Gwen, but he's doing everything SHORT of that and in the process keeping this 45 year old wound open and festering!! Now for my soapbox: Despite the tireless work of you and Phil, given past experience, I have almost no faith that the original 616 Gwen will be coming back, but I HOPE I am wrong! Instead, given the events of TCC, an alternative that COULD be made acceptable, for me at least, is shipping Peter and Spider-Gwen. I see Spider-Gwen as being essentially the same person as Gwen just having led a different life, but because she is essentially the same person, the chemistry between her and Peter could potentially bring them together. Of course their relationship could not, for practical reasons, be the same as Silver Age Gwen and Peter, but that could benefit the potential relationship by modernizing it for today's world. Peter would find that Spider-Gwen has the same qualities that made him fall in love with Gwen and she could find herself attracted to Peter for the same reasons. They could go through a tempestuous courtship, just as Peter and Gwen did way back when, but Spider-Gwen would be a modern empowered character instead of the damsel-in-distress of Silver Age Gwen, which would make a return of 616 Gwen a challenge for modern comics. Even in the movies ASM 1 and 2, her character had to be modernized. With Spider-Gwen there in present day 616 Earth, the opportunity for Peter to finally find a form of resolution with the tragedy of #121 is potentially there. Of course it would not be what we would ideally want, but if properly written it could at least be somewhat healing. Given how perverted Spidey's world has become since the Silver Age it is not very reasonable to think the franchise could go back to any semblance of the Silver Age. Maybe a relationship between Peter and Spider-Gwen can be a tolerable compromise that can offer some degree of resolution. To paraphrase the Rolling Stones: You can't always get what you want, but sometimes you might find you get what you need!
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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 27, 2018 8:40:39 GMT
You may be happy to hear that ASM #800 will be Slott's last. We still don't know who the new ASM writer will be (Nick Spencer seems to be the safest bet), but next week starts the las story arc from Dan. I will be covering that event in its own thread.
My main objection to Spider-Gwen would be the same one to the MJ we can see in RYW, or the current Flash Thompson: superpowers. If she were a mere civilian, I might feel differently.
As for Phil, don't remind me of him, I'm very disappointed in his behaviour, once I made good on my promise of posting the work for him, at CBR.
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Post by dav on Feb 27, 2018 14:27:45 GMT
You may be happy to hear that ASM #800 will be Slott's last. We still don't know who the new ASM writer will be (Nick Spencer seems to be the safest bet), but next week starts the las story arc from Dan. I will be covering that event in its own thread. My main objection to Spider-Gwen would be the same one to the MJ we can see in RYW, or the current Flash Thompson: superpowers. If she were a mere civilian, I might feel differently. As for Phil, don't remind me of him, I'm very disappointed in his behaviour, once I made good on my promise of posting the work for him, at CBR. Well, that's the thing about people. They disappoint you! At least you two were able to collaborate on this project and accomplish something great. Sadly, once a common objective is met, people find that their interests diverge and all you can do is just accept it and move on. I understand your feelings about Spider-Gwen, but sometimes ya just gotta take what you can get! It would be great if we could somehow influence the new writer for ASM, but then again, he could bring back Gwen in a way that would be totally unacceptable to us, and the chances of that happening are very high IF they were to happen at all! Then again, the two of us have different feelings about how Gwen should be brought back and one way might be acceptable to me, but unacceptable to you or vice versa. I guess I should modify my desires for Peter and Gwen: I see Gwen as Peter's true love. If she hadn't died they would have been married and lived out their lives together. In fact, that was pretty much what Stan Lee meant to happen to them. For me, ANY version of Gwen COULD be written in a way to fulfill this scenario, whether it is a Gwen clone or a Gwen from an alternate universe. The way I see it is any version of Gwen is basically the same as the original Gwen, just with a different life experience. I see any version of Gwen as having the same qualities and when she is with Peter, the undeniable attraction that they inherently have for each other would eventually bring them together. At least that is the way that I, MYSELF would write it! In the case of Spider-Gwen, I like her for three reasons: First is because of everything I stated above. Second, having super-powers herself would make her and Peter even more like kindred spirits. Third, having superpowers she would never be simply a damsel in distress. Even Mary Jane suffered from that trope. Obviously our feelings regarding this aspect of a Peter / Gwen reunion are significantly different. I guess all we can hope for, at this time, is that Spidey's new writer has similar feelings towards Gwen that we do, and will first, find some way for Peter and Gwen (or in my case some version of Gwen) to be reunited and satisfy BOTH of our desires regarding their relationship. What are the chances of that happening? Very slim! But maybe if we're REAL lucky we might be able to say, "Meh, close enough!" The good thing is that your retcon is out there for the world to see and maybe, just maybe, it might influence the powers that be at Marvel enough to want to bring Gwen back We'll just have to keep our fingers crossed and wait and see.....
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Post by Ozymandias on Feb 27, 2018 16:36:11 GMT
But... don't you miss civilian characters being just that? I don't think that neither damsels nor blokes, should be used for dramatic effect. I appreciate them more when they're in the story, to increase the complexity of human interactions. For example, what made MJ's return to ASM (in #243) so different to other comebacks, was the fact that she came at a time, when the main character's personal life, was intersecting with a couple in crisis (Lance Bannon and Amy Powell). They didn't have powers, or any hidden agenda that would prompt Spider-Man into action. They were regular people, with their pluses and cons, and because they were normal, they made Peter look more real, and MJ's re-entrance was better because of all that.
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Post by dav on Feb 28, 2018 21:15:01 GMT
But... don't you miss civilian characters being just that? I don't think that neither damsels nor blokes, should be used for dramatic effect. I appreciate them more when they're in the story, to increase the complexity of human interactions. For example, what made MJ's return to ASM (in #243) so different to other comebacks, was the fact that she came at a time, when the main character's personal life, was intersecting with a couple in crisis (Lance Bannon and Amy Powell). They didn't have powers, or any hidden agenda that would prompt Spider-Man into action. They were regular people, with their pluses and cons, and because they were normal, they made Peter look more real, and MJ's re-entrance was better because of all that. At this point beggars can't be choosers! LOL If there's a Gwen that exists in 616 that's available for Peter to fall in love with, then at least the writers have something to work with. I appreciate what you're saying regarding non-super powered characters, but in my case, my focus is on some way for Peter to have the relationship he was denied by Gwen's death. If Marvel were to use your retcon or some other way of bringing back Silver Age Gwen that would be fine by me, but I'm not opposed to Spider-Gwen filling that role either. Also, IMHO it would be difficult to just bring Gwen back and then just pick up where they left off in 1973. I don't feel that it would work very well. IMHO it would, in a way, be anti-climactic and I worry that the writers might have trouble keeping her relevant. Back in '73 there argument was made that she was boring. Even though I know that was mostly the writers fault, I personally see a difficulty writing a Silver Age character in the modern era without adding something to her. The writers had time to let MJ evolve over the course of the Franchise, but to pluck Gwen out of the simple, idealistic world of the Silver Age and drop her into Today's world of Spider-man would be at least a challenge. I'm not necessarily SOLD on Spider-Gwen to fulfill my Peter/Gwen fairy tale. It is not my ideal scenario, but after 45 years I'm willing to make some compromises so that my core objective is fulfilled. The other concern I have is that without something new or original to work with, the writers might try and kill off her character again! This is why I proposed way back when Gwen being able to help Peter with his crime fighting so that she would be an integral and essential part of Peter's life as well as the story line. Could this be an option? Yes, but then again, If Spider-Gwen is already there, why not use her character kind of like a Gwen/Black Cat character? How would YOU like to see Marvel proceed with a resurrected Silver Age Gwen that would keep her character fresh and interesting? Yes, there are other options, but to me, since Spider-Gwen is already available to work with and she can bring something new to the Franchise to keep her character fresh, why not just stick with her rather than risk Marvel dropping some version of a Peter/Gwen reunion altogether?
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 1, 2018 6:47:32 GMT
Hey,, I get you, but the fact is that Spider-Gwen has already been there, for a few years, and they haven't used her character that way. I doubt they will.
How would I like to see Marvel proceed with a resurrected Silver Age Gwen? I would try to keep it as simple as possible, just eliminate the most cringing parts of her personality (the unmotivated crying) and focus on aspects already stablished. I think there's enough of them to make her a fresh character. What Conway said about the character being boring, was never true, he just wanted to work with another character and he sold that as best he saw fit.
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Post by dav on Mar 1, 2018 12:20:54 GMT
Hey,, I get you, but the fact is that Spider-Gwen has already been there, for a few years, and they haven't used her character that way. I doubt they will. How would I like to see Marvel proceed with a resurrected Silver Age Gwen? I would try to keep it as simple as possible, just eliminate the most cringing parts of her personality (the unmotivated crying) and focus on aspects already stablished. I think there's enough of them to make her a fresh character. What Conway said about the character being boring, was never true, he just wanted to work with another character and he sold that as best he saw fit. Yeah, they could have done more with Spider-Gwen but haven't, so I doubt they will do anything with her that I would like to see. IF and that's a big IF, they wanted to bring back Silver Age Gwen, your way would be the same way I would want her brought back. We'll see what happens. Maybe with a new writer thing might start to go our way! As for Conway, I think he started to write her out about issue #100, making her less and less relevant and more "boring" to make it easier to kill her off. I could have accepted that until they started all this clone stuff! The one thing I DO know is she is still a character that peaks the readers interest. Every time they bring her back in one form or another, she sells comics! Boring, my hairy butt!! I wish Marvel could just see her potential the way WE do!!
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Post by Ozymandias on Mar 1, 2018 13:15:35 GMT
He started with #110, and AFAICR, his treatment of the character wasn't that bad, he simply wasn't interested. That said, even before the original clone saga, I wasn't ok with the "bridge scenario".
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Post by dav on Mar 1, 2018 22:40:41 GMT
He started with #110, and AFAICR, his treatment of the character wasn't that bad, he simply wasn't interested. That said, even before the original clone saga, I wasn't ok with the "bridge scenario". If you're referring to having Peter's attempt to save her leading to her death, I wholeheartedly agree. I know it's just a comic book, but that just seemed cruel. As a reader, one develops empathy for the character and that, for me, was a real punch in the gut. Hell, even today when I reread that scene I still get a little shiver down my spine and a slight sick feeling in my gut. About the only thing I can say about it was the story was so well conceived that it HAD such an emotional impact on the readers that it is still talked about today. Agreed, he didn't treat her character badly, but after going back and reading those issues, It was clear that they were making her less relevant. They kinda wrote her as a doting Stepford Wife character, so she would fit into the role of the damsel-in-distress when they finally finished her off. The way she was written before that I could see how Peter could fall in love with her and vice versa, but near the end, her character seemed somewhat pathetic. That would definitely not be acceptable if and when they bring her back!! (Another reason why I like the idea of Spider-Gwen. No one could accuse her of being the helpless damsel-in-distress!) Not trying to bring that discussion up again, but whichever version of Gwen they use HAS to have some substance to her. Something that would make the readers root for her and Peter to come together and keep their relationship interesting. She has to have a substantial enough personality and role in Peter's life to reignite that empathy in the readers to want to see them get back together AND do it in a way that is not a throwback to the Silver Age tropes.
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