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Post by dav on Oct 14, 2015 7:57:41 GMT
It never really occurred to me how diverse people's preferences can be. Regarding bringing back Gwen Stacy, the passion on both sides is incredible. In fact, within the Spidey franchise this has been one of the most controversial issues. Even among those that favor bringing her back there is controversy. For me, after I read Spider-man: Blue my desire to see the love these two had somehow played out was my motivation. I see their love as something transcendent, it needed to be played out in some way. It didn't even have to be played out by Peter and Gwen! It could have been played out by any derivative of this couple as long as it showed their love finally being played out. For me it could be Gwen, a Gwen clone almost identical to her, a Gwen from an alternate universe again almost identical to her personality-wise, or even a cousin who had a similar personality to her! It didn't even have to be Peter. It could have been Ben Reilly, who was almost identical to Peter, or even Kaine, who could evolve into a similar character to Peter given the right circumstances. As long as this transcendent love was played out I could be satisfied. Of course my ideal would be for the real Gwen and Peter to play this out, but for me, it is their love that needs to somehow be played out that is important. Although it has been played out in alternate universes, It was never REAL to me, because there was never any time put in to show them being reunited and have this undeniable love rekindle and grow in some kind of organic way, a way similar to how they fell in love in the first place. For me it is not natural for them to just pick up where they left off, especially after all this time. Also for me, I prefer to have them be the same age. I can wrap my head around a degree of age disparity, for example if Peter had reunited with the Gwen clone that was a couple of years younger that would still work because she would have the life experience and maturity CLOSE to Peter, but after all this time, to have the Gwen of 1973 come back and fit into the life of today's Peter, just doesn't work, but that is just me! If this is the ONLY way Marvel would allow her to come back, as long as it was written well, and they had the life they were denied by her death I would have no choice but accept it, but the age difference just doesn't fit into my vision of this transcendent love playing out or in her rejoining the Spider-man family and "fitting in." Also having the "flawed" Gwen from Sins Past is something that I could accept, but it of course wouldn't be my preference, and since Ozy and Vixx have worked so hard to resolve this there is no reason for me to compromise this in my vision.
Anyway, that is my preference and so I'm going to take the hard work that Ozy and Vixx have done and work from there:
Let's say that she was put in stasis for about a year, but somehow is revived but has her identity wiped, but not her life experience, which in SOME real world cases of amnesia actually does happen. A person can't remember who they are, but still retains the skills and education they had previous to the amnesia. She somehow escapes and then creates a life for herself, but later her repressed memories reassert themselves gradually and she starts to remember aspects of her former life. She could come back to New York looking for clues as to her identity to jog her memory, but doesn't find them all so goes back to her old life. While she is in New York her presence is left behind. Perhaps she had researched her old life and talked to various people and Peter discovers this information, but there is not enough evidence to truly reveal it is Gwen who is doing this investigation. This vaguely foreshadows events to come, but still leaves readers unaware who this person is. Later, Spider-man ends up going to the location where Gwen is, say in a crossover comic with the Avengers and ends up saving someone from falling to their death, eerily similar to how Gwen died, and the person he ends up saving is revealed in the last frame to be Gwen! This would allow a full circle from #121 and create a similar cliffhanger event! Seeing Peter again jogs Gwen's memory (a little) and she remembers Peter, but doesn't remember much more than that. These new memories entice her to go back to New York with Peter so she can recover more memories of her old life and reintegrate back into the Spider-man family. At this point although she remembers Peter, her feelings for him are still not recovered. They live a life as friends and he helps her to reestablish a life in New York. From there, their undeniable attraction to each other is gradually rekindled and they fall in love again.
This outline is a rough first draft and I am open to input, but the idea of Gwen's return being as unexpected and shocking as her death and being eerily similar to her death is an idea that I like very much. The idea of her death coming full circle and Peter saving her this time would correct what I consider the most tragic event in Peter's life. I wouldn't, however, have her falling off a bridge. This scenario should be different enough so that it would still be unexpected to the readers as well as not creating one of those groan-worthy moments that happen so often in comics. In fact I kind of envision him rescuing her as appearing at first to be somewhat of a routine rescue...until he sees her face. This moment should be presented in an unexpected and shocking manner so that readers would not even see it coming, but still having certain similarities to #121. The idea of having it occur in a crossover comic would be a way of making it more unexpected for the readers, but there are plenty of ways to do it within the Spidey franchise that could still be made to shock readers.
Also I would like this to be part of a story submission and not just fan fiction, something that could be given consideration at Marvel.
Well, this thread is started! I look forward to see what happens from here.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 14, 2015 8:00:50 GMT
I think I've said it before, but my personal preference, would be for her to be found in stasis, so that we don't miss on any part of the character's evolution. Your outline seems good, and could probably pan out, if written well, but is not my top choice for two reasons: - As mentioned, we don't get to follow the character, for all those years it was out of panel.
- Both "death" and reappearance, get to be Spider-Man business. We can't do anything about ASM #121, but I'd rather leave the second part, on a more mundane level, something Peter would've to deal with, from the get go.
That said, I like the full circle notion, even though it directly opposes, the points above.
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Post by dav on Oct 14, 2015 12:12:17 GMT
I think I've said it before, but my personal preference, would be for her to be found in stasis, so that we don't miss on any part of the character's evolution. Your outline seems good, and could probably pan out, if written well, but is not my top choice for two reasons: - As mentioned, we don't get to follow the character, for all those years it was out of panel.
- Both "death" and reappearance, get to be Spider-Man business. We can't do anything about ASM #121, but I'd rather leave the second part, on a more mundane level, something Peter would've to deal with, from the get go.
That said, I like the full circle notion, even though it directly opposes, the points above. #1 I can appreciate the lost years aspect, but the way I see it, revealing her backstory over time is a way to develop her character retroactively and it gives the writers a lot of potential material to work with. Also, I'm still stuck on 1973 Gwen and modern day Peter. You can retcon a lot of stuff, but IMHO 40+ years of social evolution would be a difficult thing to resolve, and the age difference and her reintegrating back into the Spider-man family when everyone she knew is now ten years older is something that feels awkward to me. #2 I can appreciate the mundane part. I was figuring that would start once they got back to New York and she was reintegrated back into the family. Also from my perspective, if she were to come back having never aged, that extraordinary circumstance would always be hanging over her character rather than getting back to some kind mundane realistic life where two people reunite after several years and rekindle their romance. Keeping Peter's life mundane and ordinary while Spider-man's life is extraordinary is what keeps Spider-man so popular and relatable. For these same reasons your work in writing away Sins Past is important, otherwise there would be the kids and Norman hanging over any attempt to return to a that mundane life for Peter and Gwen. This way there can be a return to a separation between Peter and Spider-man's lives and a maintaining of that relatable quality for the readers. We're kind of both on the same page with where we want this to go, there is just a disagreement with certain aspects.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 14, 2015 13:31:01 GMT
A flashback hasn't the same effect as present time continuity. When you read a story, you don't know anything about where it's going, a flashback only holds information about how you went from point A to point B, and both are known beforehand. I prefer an unimpeded narrative where the character evolves before our eyes, fully.
You have a point, about 40+ years in stasis being anything but mundane, but such is the nature of the predicament, in which the character finds itself after ASM #121. No matter what you do, the "normal" course of action was interrupted and can't be restored in earth-616, unless you resort to some kind of ex-machina device.
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Post by dav on Oct 14, 2015 14:51:33 GMT
A flashback hasn't the same effect as present time continuity. When you read a story, you don't know anything about where it's going, a flashback only holds information about how you went from point A to point B, and both are known beforehand. I prefer an unimpeded narrative where the character evolves before our eyes, fully. You have a point, about 40+ years in stasis being anything but mundane, but such is the nature of the predicament, in which the character finds itself after ASM #121. No matter what you do, the "normal" course of action was interrupted and can't be restored in earth-616, unless you resort to some kind of ex-machina device. I can't say that I agree with your assessment. First, Gwen would be coming out of stasis as the girl she was in #121. it would be a similar scenario to what was presented in the First Clone Saga except now instead of just two years, it's approximately ten. She would still be in love with Peter although he has moved on, and she would have a disconnection with her old friends from her past. For her it would be tomorrow, for everyone else is would be ten years later. Also from a real world perspective, we still have 1973 Gwen to work with. There would need to be some major backstory that would have to be presented as a flashback to get her up to speed as a modern character with modern depth. With regards to a normally aged Gwen, in the outline I presented, she WAS restored in earth-616 without an ex machina device. Her backstory would only fill in SOME of her character development, but she would still be in the process of regaining her memory and evolving as she reintegrates back into the Spidey Family slowly and gradually. She could actually start out as somewhat of a different character, but as she regains her memory, some of the old Gwen would be restored in her character and then she and Peter would start to fall back in love. Her backstory would be the flashback from A to B, #121 to her and Peter being reunited, but we get to see the character development from B to C, where they are reunited to finally fall back in love. Yes A to B may be known to a certain extent, but B to C is where the character evolution happens.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 14, 2015 15:36:09 GMT
First, it's not ten years. With Marvel Time frozen at year 13 forever, it's 7 years and change since TNGSD, and it will always stay there. I wasn't going to say anything about that, but since you keep mentioning those ten years…
About comparing the original Clone Saga with anything worthwhile, I don't think that's going to be very productive. Any honest story about Gwen's return, would have zero resemblance with the Clone Saga, which had the clear goal of replacing Gwen with MJ. To that end, Conway's portrayal of the characters was unrepresentative, and yields no advice as to what a real attempt would be like.
Where I want to get with all this is: we haven't actually read a story, about Peter and Gwen reuniting. Would there be hurdles in such a reunion, after all these years? Sure, but it's my believe that love as portrayed in the pages of ASM, at the turn of the 70's, has every chance of overcoming them.
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Post by dav on Oct 14, 2015 17:54:04 GMT
First, it's not ten years. With Marvel Time frozen at year 13 forever, it's 7 years and change since TNGSD, and it will always stay there. I wasn't going to say anything about that, but since you keep mentioning those ten years… About comparing the original Clone Saga with anything worthwhile, I don't think that's going to be very productive. Any honest story about Gwen's return, would have zero resemblance with the Clone Saga, which had the clear goal of replacing Gwen with MJ. To that end, Conway's portrayal of the characters was unrepresentative, and yields no advice as to what a real attempt would be like. Where I want to get with all this is: we haven't actually read a story, about Peter and Gwen reuniting. Would there be hurdles in such a reunion, after all these years? Sure, but it's my believe that love as portrayed in the pages of ASM, at the turn of the 70's, has every chance of overcoming them. For me it just doesn't sit right. The way I see it, too much has transpired since TNGSD, both within the comic and in the real world for this to work for me. For Gwen only one day would have passed. For Peter seven years have passed. He has had numerous love interests and has moved on from Gwen where she still thinks they are together. It works better for me to have two people who have been separated for 7 years or so to have separate lives then come back together and rekindle their romance. I guess this is where our visions diverge Juan.
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Post by dav on Oct 16, 2015 9:28:39 GMT
We all have our different visions as to how Gwen should rejoin the Spider-man Family. For this reason I can only present my vision and reasons and proceed from there.
First, taking the foundation of Ozy's and Vixx's hard work, I appreciate the removal of Sins Past from Gwen's history. Having the this history would tarnish any chance of Gwen's and Peter's relationship being "normal" thus corrupting the relatability. Respectfully, I also see this as an issue with Gwen's aging, thus I prefer her to age somewhat normally.
I also prefer the "full circle" approach so there is a way to create a shock equal but opposite to her death so that Peter can put that tragedy behind him.
I think it is important that Peter and Gwen's relationship not be anything like Peter and MJ's and have always felt that there was a different dynamic between them anyway. Of course it was every teenage reader's fantasy to be married to a supermodel like MJ, but in the real world I see Peter and Gwen as being more plausible. The writers did a fair job of showing how Peter and MJ could work, but IMHO this doesn't ring true. From my perspective, although Peter loved MJ, they were not as compatible as Peter and Gwen. In fact, I see see them working only because MJ loved Peter MORE than he loved her. Her love was very selfless and nurturing and helped him through trying times, but their love could never be as transcendent as Peter and Gwen's love. Even the day before they got married, Peter was still pining for Gwen and MJ accepted that she would always be second place in his heart. Gwen and Peter had a much deeper bond. They shared similar interests and ideologies and that should be expressed as they rekindle their relationship. I see Gwen as being a much more integral role in Peter's life. Gwen's father instilled in her the same values that Peter had and that was what she saw in him as they were falling in love way back in the past. This dynamic should be an important aspect as they fall back in love. She would realize that Spider-man is an extension of Peter, and he has the power to assert the passion for justice in a grander way because of his super powers and she would appreciate that, the same way as she would have appreciated that had she not died. She would learn the real story behind her father's death and realize that his death was not Spider-man's fault, but merely a tragic circumstance. This drama would however would make for some good reading for Spidey fans.
I envision her as being more than just the doting girlfriend that MJ was, instead actually able to contribute in his crimefighting. A little side note here, I would not have been opposed to Spider-Gwen coming over from her alternate universe for this reason! I believe that it is time to get away from the chauvinistic attitudes of the past where Spider-man's girlfriend is not much more than eye candy or a damsel in distress. Even in alternate universes Gwen has always shown herself to be strong and tough and I feel it is high time that Spidey have a person like her in his life. Even back in the Silver Age she challenged him and IMHO this what she was originally written to be. I never saw her as "boring." I speculate that she was written out by Conway partially because he didn't like strong women. Even Felicia was written to be somewhat of a damsel in distress despite her abilities.
Anyway, I envision Gwen as the person to help Peter realize his potential, to be more of a partner as opposed to just sitting and worrying if he will come back. I envision her as getting her science degree and actually assisting Spidey in his crime fighting. This would be an element that has never been pursued to this capacity in the past with any of Spidey's girlfriends. IMHO it is time to bring this aspect of Spider-man into the modern era.
If one were to go back and read Early Spider-man as well as various other stories regarding Gwen in later comics, including Sins Past and the Clone Saga, one will find this strength inherent in her character. Perhaps the writers in some subconscious way didn't regard her as "boring" , but as someone who they didn't like because of her strength. For this reason I believe she would fit very well into the modern Spider-man family. All the other characters in Peter's life have evolved into the characters we see today, but in this way Gwen would not have to evolve. Her core character would remain intact. There would still be a need for her to develop some depth. In fact I can see this as an opportunity to write her history with her mother into her character, something that was never explored before. Perhaps her mother was murdered like Uncle Ben and this galvanized her passion for justice and her admiration for bravery, thus leading to the undeniable attraction between her and Peter. They would be kindred spirits in this way and them coming together would be inevitable despite their separation. To me this is an important aspect in bringing Gwen back. To make it so even the naysayers about Peter and Gwen would accept her as an essential part of the Spidey family and it would be incomplete without Gwen in it. That her character is an asset to Peter's life rather than just an addition. Many of Peter's former love interests were forgettable after time. Debra Whitman and Carly Cooper for example, can be left out of Spidey's history and there nobody would really miss them, but Gwen is an indelible part of his history and in bringing her back, she should be an indelible part of his life again. For the same reasons I prefer to have the "full circle" device used to bring her back, I want her return to be as significant to Peter's modern life as her death was to his past.
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Post by dav on Oct 16, 2015 11:39:14 GMT
Another thought would be for Gwen's return to happen in conjunction with Aunt May's death. This would satisfy the sadistic readers who want Peter to suffer, but still have a silver lining. For example, some event happens, (I will leave this up to others to create) and Aunt May dies. Another dark moment in Peter's life. Then a few issues pass and readers get used to the idea of Aunt May being gone and then the "full circle" event happens. This would make Gwen's return an even MORE shocking event! If one wanted to make comic book history, one could make the audacious suggestion that Aunt May die and Gwen return in consecutive issues, similar in impact to Gwen's and subsequently Green Goblin's death. This could be ANOTHER major turning point in the Spider-man franchise on par with #121-122. I guarantee, nobody would see THAT coming! This could also be done in reverse, where Gwen returns and THEN Aunt May dies, although this scenario would in some ways eclipse Gwen's return. Although some could consider these types of scenarios to be over the top, as someone who read #121-122 in real time when they came out, this is not the case. Perhaps it would give modern readers an idea of how significant Gwen's death was to the older readers. Besides, considering all the bizarre events that have happened in the Spidey Universe over the years, especially with the resets that have occurred in the MCU, this type of event might just help modern readers to regain some perspective.
Reader's have grown to expect all kinds of bizarre events to happen in Spidey's life, but for this type of shocking event to occur in Peter's life would get readers attention. It would also fall within the realm of possibility. People do die in real life and people also return from long separations. Once modern readers get over the shock, they will be as curious as to how Peter's life continues without Aunt May and with Gwen as older readers were to see how his life continued without Gwen and GG after #121-122. There was an empathetic interest by the readers in Peter's life after Gwen. This scenario could repeat that same type of interest as well as ecclipse all of the lame stories that happened before. Here would be a chance for the writers to reset from a shocking series of events that have a degree of plausibility in the real world. How will Peter as well as the Spiderman family process Aunt May's death as well as Gwen's return? Their reactions would be as empathetic and realistic as they were after Gwen died, restoring the relatable, mundane quality back to Peter's personal life. Whatever Peter does from this point on as Spider-man, readers will be emotionally invested in his personal life restoring that quality to the franchise.
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Post by dav on Oct 17, 2015 1:20:15 GMT
After reviewing some earlier posts, I came across a better option for Gwen than amnesia. Having her have implanted memories. She could escape escape from stasis, and go to where her implanted memories said she was from. Although I'm hesitant to stir up old stuff, perhaps "Joyce Delaney" wasn't just a fabrication. Perhaps she was a real person that was experimented on by Warren, Osborn and others in that group and had her memories uploaded into Stromm's machine. Maybe Gwen was implanted with the memories of the original Joyce Delaney and kind of resumed what she thought was her life until Gwen's memories started to reemerge. This idea at least has more substance than the trite wandering around with amnesia plot device. Of course it doesn't have to be Joyce Delaney's memories that get implanted into Gwen, it's just that part of what makes comics fun to read is the way that everything is inexplicably connected the same way they do in soap operas. Might as well continue the tradition here.
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Post by Ozymandias on Oct 17, 2015 16:20:43 GMT
Indeed, I'm moving the last posts to a new thread now.
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Post by vixx on Apr 3, 2016 2:13:31 GMT
So ... Life happens Didn't realize the whole outline didn't post :x My thoughts here - I think there needs to be a deep scar on Peter. Gwen is the life he could have had... MJ is the life he did. When you run into a serious ex after a long time - there is a gap caused by all the life and experiences they had without each other, and no matter what - you can never get that time back Choosing to be Spiderman lost him the life he could have had with Gwen. But they can fumble forward. She could have lots of experiences that make her a better charector. Stasis kind of treats her like a toy in a toy box. If she ages, she'd have no experiences, and would be an object of pitty. If she doesn't - she's years younger than her peers. Either way - not a good shot at bringing anything meaningful. I think she escaped, lives in a bit of fear and choose to stay away
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Post by Ozymandias on Apr 3, 2016 14:38:15 GMT
A toy? Well of course, all these characters are our toys, don't you wanna play with them? The way I see it, I want my original toy back, as it was, not some damaged second had one I have to disinfect first, just in case (pardon the metaphor).
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Post by vixx on Apr 3, 2016 17:12:10 GMT
A toy? Well of course, all these characters are our toys, don't you wanna play with them? The way I see it, I want my original toy back, as it was, not some damaged second had one I have to disinfect first, just in case (pardon the metaphor). That's my point right there - that's how Peter should feel. He wants "his" Gwen back ... But there's a lot of time, and life inbetween his Gwen and what she's become.. And the truth is - you can never go back; that's just life. I'd love to see her written as a smart, well developed woman that really grew in her time away and had a life - one that Peter doesn't have to strain so hard to realize he choose not to have with her by choosing to be superhero. He went from her ... To black cat ( who basically dated Spider-Man) to MJ ( who adapted her life to fit his, he adapted very little) to I'm sure whatever spider schenanigans were played off panel. Lot of ways to do this with good writing - something female characters don't always benefit from. She doesn't have to go all dragon tattoo - but ...
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Post by Ozymandias on Apr 3, 2016 18:59:47 GMT
that's how Peter should feel. He wants "his" Gwen back ... But there's a lot of time, and life inbetween his Gwen and what she's become.. And the truth is - you can never go back Of course you could write it so Peter's character has Gwen's character back, just keep the toy in the box. The one who has changed is Peter itself, that'd be the interesting part of the story, at first. And I'm not talking about the shoehorning of a reaction, Conway fabricated for the original clone saga, but some serious writing.
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